Holistic Wellness: Exploring Ways to Wellness

Exploring Neurodiversity in Wellness Practices with Carle

Sarah Gorev Season 1 Episode 9

Ever tried visualisation only to wonder what on earth everyone else is seeing when they "picture a peaceful place"? You're not alone!

In this eye-opening chat, I'm joined by the lovely Carle who reached out after our mindfulness episode to share her experience with wellness practices as someone who is neurodivergent. She discovered there's a name for the inability to visualise images in your mind – aphantasia – and it's particularly common in people with autism and ADHD.

Carle shares her journey of trying wellness techniques and feeling like she was "doing it wrong" until discovering why traditional approaches weren't clicking. From mindfulness mishaps to finding her perfect yoga-mindfulness combo, her story is both refreshing and reassuring.

We discuss:

  • What aphantasia is and how it affects mindfulness practice
  • Adapting wellness techniques for neurodivergent brains
  • Why group settings sometimes work better than solo practice
  • How short moments of stretching and breathing can be game-changers
  • Introducing wellness to children with neurodiversity

Whether you struggle with visualisation or simply fancy discovering more inclusive approaches to wellness, this warm conversation reminds us that there's no "right way" to find your calm – just your way.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Carle’s children's books: www.cjgilroybooks.co.uk

Picture colour scale: https://aphantasia.com/article/strategies/think-of-a-horse/


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Today's Episode

00:48 Carle's Journey with Neurodiversity

03:17 Discovering Aphantasia

04:25 Adapting Mindfulness Practices

07:30 Yoga and Mindfulness: A Perfect Combination

23:01 The Importance of Finding the Right Instructor

24:26 Carle's Work and Final Thoughts

Thanks for listening.

Exploring Neurodiversity in Wellness Practices with Carle


​[00:00:00] 

Welcome to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I'm your host, Sarah, and today's episode came about in a rather interesting way. After our mindfulness episode a few weeks ago, I received a message from Carle on Facebook pointing out that traditional mindfulness practices can present unique challenges for people with neurodiversity.

I was immediately intrigued and knew this perspective needed to be shared. Many wellness practices like meditation and mindfulness can include visualisation techniques. But what happens if you can't visualise? Today, Carle shares her journey as a neurodivergent individual navigating wellness practices.

She's discovered aphantasia, [00:01:00] the inability to form mental images, which is common in people with ADHD and autism. She'll share how this mindfulness and the adaptations that she found that actually work. 

Sarah: Whether you struggle with visualisation yourself or are simply curious with different approaches to wellness, this conversation offers valuable insights into making wellness practices accessible for everyone. Let's dive in. 

 Welcome Carle. Carle has come to us today with her insight into how neurodiversity affects her experience of wellness practices. So thank you so much for joining us

Carle : Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having me on. Thank you.

Sarah: I really appreciate you coming on, Carle.

 Would you like to start by giving us [00:02:00] a little bit of background and how you have approached wellness and found that you've needed to change techniques or things that have worked or haven't

Carle : I was actually quite late diagnosed as autistic and with ADHD

And I tried lots of things

over the years in regards to sort of wellness and, and health, relaxation, things like that, even, you know, CBT, everything. And I couldn't get anything to sort of really work and help, for me.

And so, I always liked mindfulness and as hard as I tried, you know, when you're starting to relax and I went to so many different sort of mindfulness practitioners. I tried reflexology as well and tried to do things like that. When I close my eyes, I always lose focus and I know the main thing is to sort of draw yourself back into, into the room, no judgment, not to [00:03:00] worry about your mind drifting off, but I could never picture anything in my mind.

And I couldn't understand how everyone else could just come out so relaxed, and focus and feel so refreshed, when I'd just literally come out and my mind would be in chaos. And I just couldn't understand, what was it about me? And then I learned about something called, it's called aphantasia, 

and it's where, it's quite common, more common in people with neurodiversity, so ADHD, autism specifically. And it's where when you close your eyes, um, I didn't realise that some people can imagine, like, like a photograph almost, like looking at a photograph. Not everybody, obviously, you know, I'm not a, um, a doctor, but it, and it's a massive scale, like, when you close your eyes, some people they can picture perhaps a black and white beach or somewhere, you know, a safe place they want to be.

 And I could never imagine anything like literally it was just black. And I was thinking what do people [00:04:00] think of when they're describing this picture? And so once I came across this term and I spoke to some family and friends and they, and yeah, people were explaining to me that they close their eyes and they can see like a full memory, a full picture and like picture themselves on a lovely beach.

And I was thinking, why did, why can't I do that? And then I learned that it was a common thing with neurodiversity. And so once I kind of realised that it, first of all, it made me relax a bit more in the mindfulness. 

Sarah: Of course 

because otherwise you is there something wrong with me'

Carle : thinking, what is it that I, why can't I picture a nice relaxing space, and focus on, I mean, obviously when it's like focusing on sounds and smells like that, That was okay, apart from like my attention being drawn off somewhere else.

But, yeah, the actual picturing something, or even like, your favou rite memory to really relax and [00:05:00] draw you back in. I just couldn't picture it. 

Sarah: Actually with visualisations I have heard that that's possibly more of an

Carle : Yeah.

Sarah: than you might think because now when I've gone along to particularly online meditations and things where they have included visualisation. I have noticed that people have started addressing that and saying, if you can't visualise, imagine that you 

Carle : can

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: or pretend you

Carle : Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: So, um, I think it is something that's People are starting to be a bit more aware of that it's not this assumption. If you say, visualise this or imagine that, that someone can immediately these pictures in their mind. And I guess there's that, there's that feeling, isn't there? I don't want to admit to it because everybody else seems to be able to do it.

And what does that mean about me? And the whole point is that these techniques are supposed to help you relax. [00:06:00] And that can have the opposite effect.

Carle : that's what I found. And my Daughter struggles a lot with anxiety. And so we tried, went down the mindfulness path with her. And I thought it would be really helpful and she kept saying to me, well, no, I can't do it. 

And even though I knew I couldn't picture, I thought, well, maybe I'm just not doing it right. You know, surely she must be doing it right. But she was like, no, I can't do it. I can't do it. It doesn't work. And then, yeah, the more we read, obviously, about the aphantasia, we sort of realised, and you can actually find.

online, sort of, pictures of varying colours, of the same picture you can look at the example and see if like, you know, basically you see nothing.

It's just a black screen when you close your eyes, to like a full colour picture. And there's like a scale of how much colour you can see on it. And that was really good, and I really liked that, and I found it and showed my daughter. And we could see that we were actually like different parts on the scale.

But still not [00:07:00] like, full bright colour imagining yourself on a lovely beach sort of thing. So that was really interesting and we both were still looking for something like that because although it hadn't really worked how I wanted, I love the feeling of mindfulness and I could do it when I would use my other senses.

So, you know, when you relax and if I sort of focused on squeezing certain muscles and relaxing, if I did it that way, I could focus a bit more, you know, as long as I didn't use the visualisation. And we happened to go to a yoga class and we'd been to quite a few before. Um, we had tried lots of different yoga classes and we happened upon this one and it just so happened actually that the lady was covering for someone else we did her yoga class and she did some mindfulness at the end Both of us came out and we were like, oh my goodness.

I was like, did you actually do that one? And she was like, yeah, it was really, really good. And we were blown away. I don't, it must [00:08:00] just be how she taught it and combined with the yoga. Um, yeah, it, it worked so much better. And so we've kept going back so now we, obviously we do our yoga and then, and also she does a much gentler yoga, which is much better for me.

It's not quite as active a nd she focuses a lot on relaxation. And then we do the mindfulness relaxing at the end. And I found it so helpful. And just working the two together, has actually. Yeah, it's made such a nice combination for us because I can actually get my mindfulness to work, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Sarah: definitely. Oh, that sounds amazing. I'm so pleased for you. You were able to discover a way

Carle : Yeah.

Sarah: and find a combination that works so well for the both

Carle : Yeah. It's, it's really good. And it, and it really helps. So actually come out now actually feeling relaxed rather than, yeah, my mind chaotic because I couldn't actually [00:09:00] focus on that visualisation part. 

Sarah: Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. And, are there any other things that you've tried along the way? You touched on there about reflexology.

Carle : I really, I, I really liked that as well. But it is, again, the sort of relaxing my mind enough to get, you know, to be sort of fully, fully relaxed. My mind still feels very chaotic. And, I suppose it depends as well, the practitioner you get. I've tried some where the practitioner has spoken all throughout, you know, to try and help.

And then some where it's, it's far better if they're, they don't, you know, speak. And it's just more relaxing and just the odd conversation, but more music and sort of relaxing that way. 

 I do find it easier to get, 

more benefit from the mindfulness when I'm doing it with something else. 

 When I was doing it with the reflexology [00:10:00] or with the yoga, I'm just able to get a bit more of a benefit from it. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: And I can see how are so many combinations, and, rather than putting that pressure on you that you have to do it a certain way, because that's the way they tell you on the internet, or that's the way what particular practitioner tells you, the combination is what works for you. So that's

Carle : I think it took a long time to realise that as well, that you don't just have to do it a certain way. I mean, I remember I was reading so many books 

and I was trying so many different things

things and I was trying to sort things out for my daughter.

 But it took me a long time to realise that actually, yeah, you don't.

Need to do it the same as everyone else

 Now I think about it It's like I don't know why I didn't think of that in the beginning, but you know, you don't have to do things in a certain way Yeah,

Sarah: you kind of assume, you're trying so hard to do it the

Carle : yeah.

Sarah: that you [00:11:00] assume that if you're not having the exact experience they tell you,

happening. Then and I think sometimes also in a group setting,

Carle : Yeah.

Sarah: you know, I've had occasions where in a group setting It's worked really well because it kind of almost amplifies the

you all feel like you're doing it together You're exactly right if for some reason you feel out of sync with all of that It can kind of almost take you the of the direction because it does make you quite anxious that what are they all seeing

seeing or they're, they're all experiencing what I'm not experiencing. It must be me that's doing it wrong, rather than, okay, maybe this isn't the right approach for me, maybe this isn't the right practitioner for me and maybe this isn't the right setting for me. I mean, I know you, you have children. So, as you said, even that finding a few

just be able to try and clear yourself from all the chaos that's around you can be quite [00:12:00] challenging, to say the

Carle : I think as well. I thought it was something that I was meant to be doing on my own really quiet Whereas actually, like you say, when we do it at the end of our yoga, in a whole group session, I actually find that easier than trying to find those minutes at home on my own and calm my mind.

I have found, well for me, I've found it so much easier at the end of a whole group session. So whereas I'm sure some people are probably thinking that sounds awful and that they'd rather just be at home. Practicing it on their own. But for me, yeah, at the end of doing the, the yoga in a big group where we all lie and relax together.

 I think just the realisation as well that it's okay that I didn't see, like, the certain visual parts of it. And so I focus in on the other, parts. But to be fair, the lady that does our yoga, she doesn't go in too much about, like, visualisation . It's more about, what you can hear, and obviously your breathing, [00:13:00] and, And that has really helped, actually, just concentrating on those things.

Sarah: Yes, yeah, yeah. I guess with mindfulness it is about, all the different senses. Anyway, so, if you are able to kind of take any visualisation out of it, and just focus on that kind of, what can I smell? What can I see? What can I taste? You know, mindful eating, when you go for a walk, being able to appreciate the, the surroundings and that kind of thing. 

 Having a look at the leaves on the tree, or watching the clouds for a few minutes, or something like that, that can distract your mind from all the, you know, and it doesn't have to be a long practice, because I guess Am I right in thinking that could also be an issue

expected to sit there for 20

Carle : Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: or, you know, do something over a prolonged amount of time when you're, when your brain wants to go in different, different directions.

Carle : that just sort of sitting still as well, yeah, is near [00:14:00] impossible. Well for me, for my brain, I just find it too difficult to, to calm down in that space for myself. So I, that's why I find it easier to do with something. So even like, you know, you said you're out. Walking and you see the clouds or I find , even if when I'm at home, if I just do a certain stretch, you know, and some breathing and then it's like, okay, I can focus more then.

That's how I found for me that it's most beneficial. I'd tried some where, you know, it was like, sit more in a darkened room, or, you know, take yourself off, um, at the end of the day.

 And I just haven't been able to get that to work for me. And so, it's a bit of a relief to know that, oh, actually, it doesn't have to be exactly like that for everyone and that it can, and that it can be different. And I think I just, for some reason, in my mind it just was like, well, this is how it's meant to be.

You know? I think maybe that's like the Neurodiverse brain, especially you think very black [00:15:00] and white at times. So I know I do. 

Sarah: So do you find then you can also of bring yourself down to a more relaxed level by doing like little short things during the day, like just concentrate on breathing or something like that or stretching, 

opposed to having to do, having to rely on that yoga

Carle : yes, yeah. Before we sort of, I discovered it with the yoga, I would always be thinking, oh, I won't have time to sit down for 10 minutes, or I won't be able to do that. But then now, I have, yeah, kind of realised that, Yeah, even if I do certain stretch, I'm in the kitchen and you're just waiting for the kettle to boil even or something, or even when I'm at the supermarket and, in the checkout and I hate going to the supermarket, and even then I can stand there and I can sort of do a stretch, you know, and it just gives me I can just feel a little bit more relaxed in that moment and be like, no, it's okay.

Do some breathing. I can actually get through this [00:16:00] point, and then I'll be out of the shop in a minute and I'll be on my way home. Those two just, it has really just changed it for me and it's made me be able to incorporate it into, so into into my life, like how I wanted it to really and how I tried for so many years, and so many different practitioners and doctors even saying, you know, at the end of a session, oh, we'll do some mindfulness.

And me thinking, I just, I'm just not doing it right. Why is it not, you know, they came out more relaxed than me. And I was like, I was like, I'm not doing it right.

Sarah: I know there's something in EFT we call borrowing benefits. And actually it's where, you can be working with one person, but the rest of the group and you as a practitioner can actually benefit from the, the work with somebody else. So I could 

 Imagine that happening.

Carle : I feel like, our yoga teacher, actually, I think she takes a lot from the group as well. And it's actually quite nice to see at the end, like she's really, [00:17:00] uh, she's really grateful and she like really gets a lot out of the class and, um, it's really nice. and a lot of the other people do as well.

And at the end when they're all like, Oh, you know, thank you. That was really nice. And it's really nice to see.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, you can't beat that feeling, can you, when you're in a, in a group of people and everybody's enjoying

and they're, they're feeling good and you can feed off that if you like.

Carle : Yeah. It's nice.

Sarah: that's fantastic. So is there anything else that you fancy giving a go in terms of wellness or you've found your thing now and you're happy to

Carle : Yeah. I think for now, I found this that works. And so I think we're definitely going to stick with this, every week, sometimes a couple of times a week we do, if the same instructors there. And I'll do the yoga with her 

she just obviously works well for me and what I take in. So whenever she's teaching, I try and get on her classes. 

Sarah: And it's beautiful that you're [00:18:00] able to do that with your daughter

and share that experience and for her to not have to have That feeling of the pressure and i'm not doing it right and everything for herself She can see there's wellness techniques that she can take into her adult

Carle : Exactly, it's been nice as well for her because she's been able to see the benefits and, it's really helped her anxiety as well, I think.

Sarah: Obviously, I don't know how much she's using it sort of day to day, but it is nice to see she's really excited about the yoga session. So, that's nice. 

 I think some schools have,

Carle : Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: a shame there's not more coming through. It all seems to be this focus on of exams and parents be aware that children might feel anxious around exams, but actually, especially in this world, there's so many things that could bring on feelings of anxiety or, or other issues that actually it feels like [00:19:00] that there should be some, some kind of teaching or some kind of session at the start of the school day

at lunch time or something that, that would help them kind of rebalance and, and get to a calmer  

Carle : Last year, my youngest, they would start their day with the children's yoga. Um, yeah. And they'd have it on the big screen. And so actually when I was doing some poses at home, she was saying to me, Oh, I've done that one. I've done that one.

And it was really nice. And so we've been and I love that and I actually spoke to them about it and I said, I love it that you do that because whilst they'd be waiting in the morning, like, you know, children be coming in and out and they'd have a little bit more of a Like a fluid structure to the day.

It wouldn't be you know, like come in sit down It was sort of a bit more relaxed and they'd all be starting their morning with like the The children's yoga and it was lovely and she absolutely loves it. And so when I, if I do some of an evening, [00:20:00] she'll start doing the poses with me and they'll both ask me, they'll be like, what, what poses did you do today?

Mommy? What poses did you do? Show me this one. Show me Yeah. And it's really, it's really good. 

So some schools I think must be doing it. So it might not be. a regular thing in the class she's in now, but they definitely have done at some point and it really helped her and I think it definitely should be done in more schools. I was at a school a couple of weeks ago and I did speak to one of the teachers and they were saying that they wanted to incorporate it into PE, um, and that was sort of primary school age.

 I think it could help. But it would definitely help secondary school, especially around sort of exam time. 

Sarah: Kind of all the time as well. It's lovely to see it more in more ways. And I guess as we become more and more aware of mental health. [00:21:00] Hopefully, funding and time is always an issue, isn't it, with schools? But but hopefully it's on somebody's list somewhere to to look into.

And in the meantime. We can by doing exactly what you're doing and introducing your children to it at home or in classes and making it a family activity as well, which is

Carle : Well, my young ones love it. And to be fair, they're far more flexible than I am. So they're like, they're enjoying it because they can do all the poses and I'm just like, and stretches and I'm like, just, you know, making it look like I am.

Sarah: you. I'm with you. Yeah, what happens to flexibility when we get

Carle : I know, I know, mine's gone. I'm just like, you know, trying as hard as I can. 

Sarah: But that's another thing, isn't it? With yoga, it's so lovely that you've got the kind of two elements. You've got the physical as well as the mental, both incorporated. So have you seen a benefit from the physical perspective

Carle : Yeah, definitely, [00:22:00] definitely. And every week I've been able to do more and more. And also, again, I've realised that I don't need to be doing it all the same as everyone else. So, what I've found really helpful with this instructor as well is that she'll give multiple options for like, poses and stretches.

So it'll be like, you know, if you can't do this, if you can't stretch this much. then you can do this, or you can do this, or you can stay in this position. Knowing that I don't have to, do it the same as everyone else has really helped me.

So I'll have some blocks and I'll have the strap and that has helped me to be able to realise, well, actually, I don't have to be doing it, you know, exactly the same, but I can still get the benefits from it. This instructor obviously has been really great.

I've definitely been able to regulate my breathing more. And doing the stretches correctly, you know, on your inhale, exhale. And that has really helped as well. And that has helped me to relax more. So it's been, it's been [00:23:00] really good.

Sarah: I love that. So it sounds like it's very important to find the right instructor 

Carle : She was really really good she's very Not strict, but sort of like very straightforward. Like, you know, you do this, this, this. 

Sarah: And I guess that speaks to you

because you, you know exactly what you're

Carle : exactly. She was, yeah, yeah, that was it. She really sort of, um, spoke through the the stretches and the poses. Because normally I end up, 

I'd have to be really following and looking all the time at what the instructor was doing. Whereas I could concentrate on the pose and the stretches because she actually talked through what you should be doing. And I was like, Oh, actually, I don't need to be then just constantly looking and missing out on doing 

all the stretches because I'm constantly wondering what they're doing. She just talked it all through and I think well for me, it just really resonated and I was like, Oh, this is great. I really understand what she's on about. And it just worked. 

Sarah: Yeah. So I think there's some really powerful messages that we've. [00:24:00] discussed today, Carle, so that's been fantastic. Persevere, don't assume you're doing something wrong, and how you can really adapt the techniques or, you know, find the right technique that works for you. Being aware of

your body, how you're feeling, that's been fantastic to hear and I'm really pleased for you in your journey that you found some wellness techniques that have worked so well. I know Carle that from a neurodiversity perspective, it's an area that's very important to you and you, you do talks and you even have some products to help children, don't you?  

Yes, so I, have written some children's stories, so sort of short stories, picture books about, neurodiversity. So specifically, my two books, one is called I'm Autistic too and one is called I Have ADHD too. And they're actually about a parent and their [00:25:00] child who both have either ADHD or are both autistic and how they're navigating the world together and how they both, they both obviously have similar experiences.

Carle : Because they have the same diagnosis but they obviously navigate the world slightly different because you know adults have got to deal with all the adulting we've got to deal with and working and everything and you know paying bills and Whereas, children they'll deal with it, they've got their friends or been at school and things like that but it's yeah, it's about them being the same but experiencing things slightly different, but they're you know, they're very sort of child friendly, easy to read books, probably around primary school age.

 It's been really important for me and my children, for our experiences, for me to write those and to help them as well. And so I do go into schools and talk about my books and obviously do a little presentation and workshops to sort of try [00:26:00] and help, uh, the children realise that, you know, yeah, they're not alone and, um, and that they, they can identify it in themselves and their, their friends and their family.

And it just makes them feel less alone and that you don't have to do things in such a, you know, black and white way.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Oh, amazing. That sounds absolutely fantastic. Well, if there's any listeners who would be interested in those books or contacting Carle about, her talks, I'll pop her details in the show notes and thank you so much for today's chat.

I really enjoyed it, and I think that again, there was some really useful messages that wellness techniques are what you make them, and sometimes it just takes a bit of perseverance to find the right one, but not to give up And when you hit on that right thing, it can make such a huge difference to your life and potentially the life of your family.

Carle : definitely. I [00:27:00] think especially, you know, neurodiverse brain as well, you're always wanting to go chop to something else. So it doesn't work. So I must try, it must be something else. It must be something else. But it has really helped for us that we found that thing that You know, it's been so beneficial.

And so hopefully that can help some of your listeners as well. And they realise that it's not them if they can't visualise anything, it's just, it's not their fault. They're not doing it wrong.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. What a perfect message to end on. So thank you so much,

Carle : Thank you.   

I want to thank Carle for her openness in sharing her experiences today. This conversation highlights something so important. Wellness techniques aren't one size fits all, and there's nothing wrong with you if traditional approaches don't work. Sometimes it takes perseverance to find the [00:28:00] right combination, but when you do, it can transform not just your life, but your family's too.

If you'd like to learn more about Carle's work, including her children's books, I'm Autistic too and I Have ADHD too, or her talks on neurodiversity for schools, you can find her details in the show notes. Remember, as Carle so perfectly put it, if you can't visualise, it's not your fault. You're not doing it wrong.

It might just mean you haven't found your right approach yet. Until next time, I'm Sarah and remember, there's many paths to wellness and sometimes it's about finding what works for you. 

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