Exploring Flavour Experiences with Craig

The Hidden Psychology of Flavour: How Taste and Smell Impact Mental Wellbeing with Flavour Expert Craig

Discover the surprising connection between what you taste and how you feel. Join me for an eye-opening conversation with Craig Duckham, an expert from the flavour industry, about how our relationship with taste and smell profoundly impacts our psychological wellbeing - and how mindful eating can become a powerful wellness practice.

What You'll Experience:

• How losing taste and smell during COVID revealed their crucial role in mental health
• The science behind why certain flavours instantly transport us to childhood memories
• How mindful eating can become a form of meditation and stress relief
• Why comfort foods are actually emotional anchors that support our wellbeing
• The psychology behind our cravings for salt, sugar, and familiar flavours
• Practical ways to make healthier foods more appealing using herbs and spices

Episode Highlights:

• The profound impact of taste and smell loss on quality of life and mental health
• How flavour connects directly to memory and emotion through the olfactory bulb
• Why eating slowly and mindfully improves both digestion and psychological wellbeing
• The ritual and ceremony of food preparation as wellness practice
• How to "reset" your taste buds and appreciate natural flavours more deeply
• Making plant-based eating enjoyable through creative flavour combinations

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction - The surprising link between flavour and wellness 03:00 COVID's impact on taste/smell and mental health revelations 05:00 The complex science of how we experience flavour 07:00 Flavour shortcuts and psychological associations 10:00 Why we've lost the art of tasting our food 11:00 Mindful eating as meditation and stress relief 16:00 How different senses interact to influence flavour experience 20:00 Using herbs and spices to enhance healthy eating 22:00 The psychology of salt and sugar cravings 27:00 How cooking methods affect flavour and enjoyment 29:00 Resetting taste buds and appreciating natural flavours 33:00 Food rituals and ceremonies as wellness practices 36:00 Comfort food psychology and emotional anchoring 38:00 Ancient wisdom about chewing food properly

Perfect for anyone interested in mindful eating, the psychology of food, using flavour to make healthy choices more appealing, or discovering how our senses impact mental wellbeing. Craig's expertise reveals how something as simple as truly tasting your food can become a transformative wellness practice.

Remember: Small changes in how we approach food and flavour can create significant improvements in both physical and mental wellbeing.

Thanks for listening.

Transcript

Exploring Experiencing Flavour with Craig

[00:00:00] 

Welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I'm Sarah, and today we are diving into something completely different, the fascinating connection between flavour and our psychological wellbeing. Now you might be wondering what this has to do with wellness.

Well, think about it. When did you last truly taste your food? When did you last use a meal as a moment for mindfulness or reach for a particular flavour because it made you feel better? My guest today is Craig, who works in the flavour industry, and our conversation opened my eyes on just how powerful our relationship with taste and smell really is From the COVID Pandemic showing us what happens [00:01:00] when we lose our senses to certain flavours that can transport us back to childhood in seconds to the way that mindful eating can become a form of meditation.

We'll explore how flavour connects to memory and emotion, why some foods become our go-to comfort choices and how something as simple as really tasting your morning coffee could become a wellness practice.

 Let's explore the surprising world of flavour psychology and how it impacts our wellbeing every single day.

Sarah: I'm thrilled to have Craig with me here today to talk about flavour Having had a background in the food industry for a little while back in the day myself and working on a flavour event with Craig for the last.

10 years or so. Yeah, 

Craig: we're trying [00:02:00] not to think about how long it's been. Really. 

Sarah: That's it. I thought it would be quite interesting for us to have a chat where we look at the interaction between flavour and wellbeing and feelings of wellness. So thank you, Craig, for joining us. 

Craig: No, thanks for the invite.

I'm really looking forward to it. Has to be said. It's my first ever podcast, so, um, let's hope if it's a good one. 

Sarah: No pressure. No pressure. No pressure whatsoever. No, no. Well, I'm really looking forward to this conversation because I know we've had a couple of chats in the past about you know, skirting over this issue anyway.

But I just find it really interesting that, particularly in the wellness space where we think about things like diet being linked to our wellbeing and t here's so many elements around food, such as flavour mm-hmm.

That can impact our experience. 

Craig: Absolutely. 

[00:03:00] Uh, a a absolutely. And I, and I think it has brought, uh, into sharp relief during the COVID situation where a, a very large number of people lost their sense of flavour or their sense of taste or aroma. And, um, and many of them subsequently went on to have, uh, a complete change in their sensory response to aroma.

So they'd be smelling things that they were familiar with would completely disappear. And as their sense of smell and taste came back, it was distorted. So they'd be smelling coffee and it'd be smelling like rotten vegetables or drains, and it became completely unpalatable. So that had a huge impact on people's, uh, mental health and wellbeing, and it just brought into sharp focus how important that sense of if you like, flavour, is in your [00:04:00] life.

So if you have to take those senses away for the year, it really impacts your quality of life, your mental wellbeing.

So that, that for me was a bit of an eye-opening kind of period. Mm. Um, to take me a little bit back to, thinking about the importance of it to us all. And, um, I suppose when we talk about food, we talk about flavour in its kind of holistic sort of sense, but what, obviously it often is taken for granted that you've got the sense of taste and the sense of smell, which combines to give you the flavour, 

Sarah: right?

Craig: Yeah. And even the sense of smell plays a massive part in our enjoyment of food and our sensing, the different ingredients. And what people may not appreciate is. You experience this over a period of time, once you've eaten something, all the flavours are released. [00:05:00] The volatile flavours, what we'd call aroma, and you can sense those with your nose first, even before you eat the food.

But then during eating and during swallowing, some of those flavours that are not so immediately noticeable then make their way to this. Basically the sense organ, this olfactory bulb that sits just below the brain, right? So it's a, even just on the basic physical aspects of, of eating some food, it's, it's very complicated the way we sense those things that are released during eating.

And I think that's what really attracted me to this whole area is because of how complex it is. 

Sarah: It's not just like, yeah, sounds even more complex than I had appreciated the fact that not only is there a, a flavour to things, but it can change depending on your interaction with it. So how you're [00:06:00] chewing or how you are experiencing that.

Craig: Oh, absolutely. Just the aroma can is so, can be so evocative, can take you back to childhood even before you start eating the food. It just get. You know, all the salivary glands get going it's comfort food if you like, it's, and, and there's lots of emotion wrapped up in your experience of, of eating and, and people are talking about it a lot more now.

Sarah: That's particularly sparked my interest from moving into that sort of wellness and emotional space is the fact that these sensory areas, such as smell and taste, can bring forward memories. They can bring forward emotions that either we want to have or we don't want to have. There's sort of all sorts of flavours aren't there, that, that we associate with different things as well. We like 

these shortcuts, don't we? So, you know, if something has citrus in it, we expect it to be, [00:07:00] it, to have vitamin C in it and it it to have something that will help with our immunity or there's a lot with spices, for example.

And then it's the anti-inflammatory properties. If something tastes of chocolate, then it will give us a mood boost maybe. And cocoa ceremonies and things that are, people are weaving in these, these perceived benefits based on the flavour how that can make you feel.

Yes. And, and how we can therefore use them as part of technique to bring about remembering something or having positive memories. Positive experiences

and how maybe the industries can use them for benefits, but also there is going to be a danger in manipulating them

Craig: no, ab absolutely. But, but we can only be easily manipulated if, if they're tapping into something that, that is evocative, that exists. [00:08:00] Does, does give us something that we actually crave.

Sarah: Also that perception of what's nice, isn't it? So we've got sort 

Craig: of that's, that's true. 

Sarah: So if something tastes sweet, then that means it, it's nice. And if something that's right bitter, we maybe think, oh no, that's, that's not good for us. Or it's, 

Craig: yeah. 

Sarah: Which isn't always necessarily the case. And I wonder where that's come from. 

Craig: Well, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, over, over the years certainly in the west our palates, have been, I think manipulated, modified adjusted, uh, for example, to, to have food that is more sweet or is more salty, uh, on the savoury side of things.

And it's clearly been shown that it's pretty much habit because I, I know industry have run many trials where they, they can reduce the amount of salt and sugar in products. A lot of the hard work is, is just reformulating with less of those things in [00:09:00] that doesn't impact the, particularly with salt, the functional elements of salt, like, partly as a preservative and also to help with some, the structure of some food types.

But if it's just down to taste, you can often reduce say by 20% the amount of sugar or salt in there, for example, without people particularly noticing. And you can wean people off. I mean, how many people have used to drink, uh, tea or coffee with sugar in, and then they stopped, didn't replace it with artificial or anything.

They just stopped. And, but they did it by slowly reducing the amount. I mean, I did that myself donkeys years ago. And you drink it now and you think, well, that's nice. Why did I add sugar to it? You know, it's, 

Sarah: yeah, it's like habit forming, isn't it? Is it? 

Craig: Yeah. So I think, I think we do get into habits.

And obviously part of the habits come from family and the rituals about eating

and as a child and the experiences you had with food, um, 

Sarah: is [00:10:00] that again, linked to these memories, do you think? Oh, 

Craig: I think so. I mean, especially if, you know, you're generally associating things with good memories. 

Sarah: Yeah. And it then it's that comfort element again, isn't it? 

Craig: Oh, absolutely.

But it's interesting, isn't it? Because I mean, I think many people in the past would've been sat around the table as a family, eating their food, maybe talking taking their time over their food. Whereas we've shifted, and this is a bit of a bug bear for me. We've shifted towards essentially not just fast food, but fast eating or, the convenience of, you know, sitting in front of tele with a, you know, whatever type of meal it is.

You're not concentrating on the food. 

Sarah: Yeah. The smells. I'm, I'm with you. Totally. I've really noticed that as well. We don't taste our food anymore, do we? No, that's right.

Craig: Yeah, 

Sarah: I think there's a lot of that. 

Craig: Yeah. I think, I think there is a lot of that. One of the things that, that, that's come out in the science is taking your time [00:11:00] to eat and chew. And having texture, the texture of food that kind of forces you to chew does have an impact on the amount you eat. And how full you feel. And it made me think, well also what can encourage that is if, if you are thinking of the aromas and the taste of your food and you just take the time to actually enjoy it.

Yeah. And for me it can be almost like a meditative state. You know, you're there and you're enjoying every moment. If you go out for a meal, for example, you're enjoying the atmosphere of the restaurant, you're enjoying the food that's put in front, the way it's displayed the colour of it.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Craig: But the smell of it as well. All, 

Sarah: you know, it's all the tasting menus actually experiences, isn't it? 

Craig: Yeah. You know, and there's always the examples, you know, of you know, these big endless buffets where you can walk in and eat as much as you like for a tenner or something, which is clearly, you know, the opposite end of the scale.

But I think in some ways the, the [00:12:00] science is catching up to some of the, the behaviours. I think now where we're looking at, our habits of, of eating. And it's not just the food that's placed in front of us, it's how we approach the food. It's how we experience the food.

Sarah: And I know for example, in the mindfulness episode I did, we did touch on food for, from the perspective of a, a mindful exercise. You know, how does this make me feel? And, and what does it taste like? And just, you know, having those moments to, to really concentrate on something other than, all the craziness that's going on in the day.

Whatever you, you are having your break for lunch or you are having a, a snack and using those moments that we all have during the day, which are opportunities for us to direct our attention towards something that we are doing that can give our brain rest from, you know, all the meetings and, and everything [00:13:00] else that can take over.

Craig: Absolutely.

Your brain needs to switch off. So when you start up again, you're actually thinking more effectively, thinking more creatively. Yeah. And, and that's clearly part of the mindfulness as, as we now know it. Yeah. Is, is intrinsic to that kind of, break from, as you say, all the chaos or all the, the spreadsheets or whatever, and Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. You know, and, and within that then you can possibly use the food and the, that opportunity to have that sort taste experience or flavour experience. Oh, 

Craig: absolutely. And that, and that's got to help.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That helps you to help to take you away from all the other experiences, you know, all the other sensory Im inputs that are bombarding you, because, um. Because those senses are very strong. Once you experience, um, the taste, the flavour, the aroma of something, it can [00:14:00] stick with you for tens of years.

Yeah. Um, to the point where, you know, a certain aroma, perfume, scent. It, it might take you back decades to some event or some person, or some situation that that, that you remember. Hopefully a good situation. Yes.

Um, but that's not necessarily so, but, uh, I, I think often they, they tend to be the things that stick in your mind. If we have to take, um, a bit, a bit of learning, I think from this conversation is, you know. Take a little bit more time to just enjoy that moment or those moments when you have got some food in front of you.

Just, yeah, just, just shut out the rest of the world. Some people like to listen to music on their headphones, listen to podcasts, and one thing we've learned is what you get outta the eating experience, the sensory experience of eating and, and aroma of food can be influenced by [00:15:00] the background noise, the music that you listen to.

And in fact, the whole experience of smelling, tasting, eating is influenced by. Sight what you see in front of you. Different colours, different sounds, different music will all change the kind of enjoyment you get outta that eating experience and actually how you sense those aromas and those tastes.

And this is pretty much new stuff now that we are really discovering how the different senses interact. Yeah. To influence how you experience the aroma of a plated meal or the taste of the food, the saltiness, the sweetness of a, a certain dish.

Which is absolutely fascinating. And yeah, 

Sarah: it is, it's really, really interesting. So, you know, how we experience these things come, can change based on. So [00:16:00] many different elements. I mean, I guess that like we know that colour can influence things. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: Um, and to some extent, as you said, you can play around with colour and flavour and, 

Craig: oh, absolutely. Yeah. 

Sarah: I'm eating 

this and it's, you know, a yellow sweet, but it taste of strawberry, like 

Craig: Oh, absolutely. I suppose past 20 years, I suppose a lot of the, a lot of the top chefs have played around with this greatly, making creations that look one thing, but actually taste another.

Sarah: Yeah. That's really interesting, isn't it? Because again, it's how our brain is perceiving something and how it's reacting as a result. Yeah. And the sort of, there is an element of, that can be manipulated maybe by the industry, but at the same time then is there a possibility for it to do good in Absolutely.

Somebody that can't maybe consume certain foods or whatever. Is there also an opportunity there to sort. Give suggestions that mean your brain [00:17:00] and your experience interprets it in a certain way that actually gives you some of the benefits. Yeah. So you, you feel like you are more likely to fight off disease because you're having this, this jelly.

Because you've got that psychological element to it, you could benefit from it on a physical sense. 

Craig: Yeah, I think, and I think, you know, it's, um, I think the industry is moving in that direction.

One of the big, well, one of the curiosities in my brain has been around those people that, that. Don't have that good experience with food. Mm-hmm. And how can you make that experience better for them? So people that are losing their sense of taste people that are going through chemotherapy for example mm-hmm.

Often lose their sense of taste. So I know there's a lot of work going into providing all those tweaks that will, will help them enjoy that as much as possible. Because as I touched on at the beginning, you know, the, the, this enjoyment of, of a aroma [00:18:00] and taste, it has a, a really big impact on mental health.

And if you're losing those senses or you lose, you know, you lose your appetite or for whatever reason using all the knowledge that we now have, can be put together to, to help encourage people to eat the right types of food, to eat enough food.

Um, as you're getting older, you, you lose your appetite be, and it's partly because you're losing your sense of taste and smell. Hmm. All of those people are still wanting to have nutritious food, but they also need the encouragement one way or another psychologically to help them enjoy it.

Yes. So, um, so there is a lot of work in that area and it's either, you know, ensuring that the, there is enough flavouring in there. There's, you know, I've seen flavour ingredients in there to stimulate the saliva glands, for [00:19:00] example.

And, and also, put more things that are more pungent and aromatic to, to compensate for that loss. Mm-hmm. You know, so there is a lot of work going down that route as well. And I think, um, you know, sometimes it, it can be seen, oh, that might be a bit of a niche area, but when you consider the aging population we've got, there's a massive, number of people out there that would, be consumers of these types of products.

One of the few enjoyments they may have is eating nice food. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And often again cheaper food can, can be sort of seen as quite bland in flavour, can't it? Beans and pulses and things that are actually quite good for your healthy for you and, and, and could fill you up, um, or replace more expensive food items, you know, get those herbs and chilli flakes and, adding that flavour can make such a massive difference to, rather than looking at the plate in [00:20:00] front of you and thinking, oh gosh, here we go again.

Craig: Yeah. Well, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, and I think also the, we've seen the, um, growing interest in vegetarian and vegan diets. Um, and even if it is taking out only a proportion of, of people's meat from their diets you know, people are more likely to eat more plant-based f oods if they're not seen as bland.

Sarah: Now to be honest, the, if you look at the aisle with the herbs and spices on, there's just such a massive array out there that maybe we should be a bit more a dventurous. And actually there's a sort of all sorts of food items out there that maybe wouldn't have we wouldn't have considered because of our palates,

I would say I've started looking at the ingredients of some of these. 'cause some of them are actually quite expensive. The blends 

Craig: Yeah. Of 

Sarah: spice, herbs and spices. And when you actually look at the back of them often, the first ingredient is either salt.

Or somewhere in there is sugar. [00:21:00] No, absolutely. No, that's true. So maybe we haven't completely 

Craig: we're, not quite there yet. That is, is true. Yes. I mean, and going for, you know, ready, prepared mixes and sauces and pastes, et cetera.

You know, it gives you the Yeah. The taste and flavours, um, that you might be looking for. But yes, the caveat is they're often full of salt and sugar

Sarah: but what do you think? Is it, it's about salt and sugar that we crave so much?

Is it a sort of learned thing or is it something deeper than that? 

Craig: They're flavour enhancing ingredients. And I think in the western diet, we've really suffered from ignoring the benefits of other flavour enhancing ingredients.

Use chilli use, um, more herbs, more spices to give you a wider palette of flavours. Because what it does is it lifts the whole experience of the food. It's, you're not just simply bringing in or [00:22:00] the flavour of, onion it's a common thing that we've done in the past that not just is the flavour of the onion, it kind of lifts the other flavours in there as well.

Yeah. And that's what salt does. We've got to the stage where we keep adding more and more salt to things.

 But, um, I think part of the trick is you wean yourself off it.

You actually then spend time considering the actual flavour of the food. Rather than the salted version. But what happens more in the east is glutamate is used, the dreaded monosodium glutamate, right? which affect what has become known as the the fifth taste umami.

Which some of your listeners might know about. And this is like a flavour enhancing ingredient. And it behaves a bit differently to salt, but it's essentially there to enhance the flavour of the whole product, the whole [00:23:00] food. Which was demonized in the west through what is now considered maybe not such well established science.

Okay. My diplomatic hat's on.

And, um, but you look at the populations in East Asia where they, they use it all the time. We need to have a relook, you know, we are revisiting these kind of concepts.

So I think, yeah, we we're starting to look at using a wider range of ingredients, bringing a lot more pungency to, to food, I think than we used to do, but certainly in, in, in our lifetime anyway.

And also we're trying to go away from, from using meat and meat contains a lot of these ingredients. Once you roast meat, you know, you're generating lots and lots of flavour with the fats and the proteins and the aroma that comes from it.

If you remove that from your dishes, of [00:24:00] course you're also losing the flavour enhancing properties that come with that as well.

Combinations that are happening during the cooking process, which lifts the flavour of the rest of the dish. We've got to work on finding replacements to use to bring those flavour enhancing impacts.

And again, it comes back to making the food be enjoyable. We've got range of ingredients and flavours and aromas and, and things to, to be able to play with. So we find, you know, we go into various recipe books or restaurants and that we've got so much more wider choice of flavours, aromas, tastes, um, and, 

Sarah: and influences 

from many different cultures as well.

Craig: Absolutely. 

I mean, from my perspective, you know, it's, it's a great time to be involved in, in, in the kind of flavour sector if you like, which is where most of my work takes its place. Because. One, you're dealing with something that's very complex. You're dealing with something that has a real impact on people's mental [00:25:00] wellbeing.

Mm-hmm. And, and it's so important. And with, and it's something we take for granted so much. Yeah. Um, in itself, the food manufacturing industry is the biggest manufacturing industry in the UK, I believe. And that's always forgotten and put to one side because it's just taken for granted.

Mm. And part of that is is producing food, and that's producing crops. So choosing the right potatoes with good flavour that can be cooked well. And, and to produce the right kind of, you know, flavour that you want in your food. Right through to, factory produced, uh, ready meals if you like. There's so much work going into now the ready meals you can get that's so important for older people who haven't got necessarily the ability, um, or the inclination to be able to create, tasty nutritional beneficial [00:26:00] meals.

So I think there are a lot of, lot of good things happening, yeah. So I think we've certainly come a long way in understanding how we experience food. What we need to, I think, work on more is helping people make the most of that experience.

Yeah. And especially those, those that that, you know, have, have post mal taste through various, it might be illness, treatments or just age, and I think there's a lot of scope there and especially as we begin to understand the emotional impact of losing that and the emotional benefits of having nice food and being able to take the time to experience it.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Sarah: definitely some really, really important points there. You mentioned as well about the cooking process and that was Oh yeah. Something I just wanted to touch on as well about how the way we prepare our [00:27:00] food can have an influence on the flavour that it has and our enjoyment of it .

Craig: Yeah. 

Sarah: Do you think maybe you, you mentioned with. Ready meal. The classically, yes, you have to add salt to a ready meal often to make it palatable, but it could be to do with the cooking process as well, because it's, you know, it's going in a microwave or it's, it's going in an oven as opposed to some cooking.

You know, now there's the air fryers and things like that. And how did they influence the flavour and that flavour experience we have and our enjoyment the result, do you think?

Yeah. Well, 

Craig: As soon as you change the type of, of cooking you do, you are gonna change the flavour. 

Sarah: I wonder 

from a psychological perspective as well, yeah, whether all those different elements are coming into the way that you are cooking food and it's that sort of experience of preparation as well.

Well, 

Craig: yeah, I, I mean, I agree. I mean, I love cooking. I mean, I really enjoy cooking. But I, I, I treat it a bit like an experiment really. So I'll go to the recipe book [00:28:00] and then I'll say, okay, there's this in there, this and there.

Oh, uh oh. It's got celery in there. Celery is added to a lot of things. Again, it's one of those ingredients that holds up the flavour in stews and broths and this kind of thing. I hate it. And this'll touch on genetics. So genetically, some people are more sensitive to some things than others. It's just genetics.

I'm one of the 

Sarah: watercress aren't there? Watercress is a, is another one. It can probably don't taste anything, or, or it tastes very, very bitter. 

Craig: Um, so, um, coriander is another one. 

Sarah: Mm. But 

Craig: some people large proportion of the population, it just tastes soapy. It doesn't smell of coriander as we know it. What I have learned though more is usually better when it comes to flavouring food, uh, with herbs and spices, obviously, with the exception of adding loads of salt and sugar in there.

Sarah: Actually one thing, um, [00:29:00] don't mean to take us back to sugar. Yes. But I, many, many years ago, probably about 20 years ago, I tried cut all the sugars out of your diet to try and sort of reset your taste buds .

And I did, to be honest, I did it as a bit of an experiment. I didn't really believe that it would make such a difference, but it was incredible. I think it was only over a couple of weeks by cutting sugar out how sweet things tasted. Ah, yes. And I don't necessarily mean products that you think of as being sweet, but even just to have a salad, tomatoes, it, like everything sort of took on.

Craig: That's interesting, isn't it? 

Sarah: Extreme of the flavour that Yeah. That I, I wouldn't think of as being strongly flavoured before. When you're younger, you can always be daring yourself for the most sour, sweet or, or something like that.

So maybe it was off the back of years of, uh, pushing my taste buds, but I did [00:30:00] find it really interesting how I appreciated natural products in a different way. 

Craig: Now there could be a lot of psychology going on there because obviously you've consciously reduced the amount of sugar in, in particular situations.

And your brain may well be thinking, searching for sugar. Yeah. Searching for sweetness in everything else that you're eating. But it's a really interesting question. And it does then start making you think, well, yeah, maybe that's part of one of the benefits of cutting out excess sugar or excess salt.

Your brain then starts looking for it in other products, and by doing that, you're experiencing the flavour and taste, and it's grabbing the attention of your mind to, to focus more on the food you're eating. 

Yeah, 

that's, I mean, interesting. 

Sarah: A long time ago that I did it. Yeah. And, um, you know, all the sort of more sweeter products, they're all well and truly back in [00:31:00] my diet.

But, but, but I do find, yeah, it sort of reset my mindset around those natural products as well. You know, I would, I love a, a salad now, whereas I would always consider it sort of as a on the side necessity. Yes. You know, back when I'm talking about. Yeah. . It's interesting isn't it, how our brain can associate different experiences with different things and we do have the ability to change that.

Craig: Yeah. No, that's right. Basically you, you can't lose, by making a change like that you know, you're not, you're not losing anything by trying to reduce the amount of salt and sugar in your diet, for example. Because, as you've just pointed out, you know, it may mean that you're actually focussing on, on the flavours that are there more. And, um, so your enjoyment of them is greater, but also I think it enables you to think more creatively as well. Salad example, past few years I've been eating more salads, but it's, [00:32:00] it's, it's kind of, yeah, kicking and screaming to, to eat them in some ways knowing that they are better for me. But it made me then start experimenting, well, add a little bit of, something different in there.

Couple of sultanas, um. Bit of pickled, beetroot, a bit of, you know, yeah, a little bit of cheese, a bit of different type of cheese on there, rather than it just being leafy vegetables with a, say, tomatoes on there. And what I've found is I actually enjoy it now. I enjoy eating a mixed salad now, whereas, you know, a number of years ago, I, I'd have run out of the room screaming.

I like the idea of having adventures with food, so I mean, I, I recognise, you know, it's time and it may be money, but not necessarily. But I think it's worth taking the time, yeah. Look what's in the cupboard.

Sarah: In terms of preparation of food, of course there's also, so sometimes ceremonial [00:33:00] ways of bringing food into 

Craig: Sunday lunches always had a certain ritual about them. There's obviously regional rituals like tea drinking in Japan could be very ritualised. And I think the, a number of examples that a lot of cultures can relate to that way.

And it's that whole experience around the eating and drinking that, um. It, it does take you to a different place. It takes you away from everyday life. It focuses you around that whole experience. And it, and that 

Sarah: opportunity, I guess for, for interacting with people in a slightly different way. So whether that's in a, a ceremony where you are, um, respectful or you are experiencing things, on a ceremonial basis or whether you're around the dinner table on a, on a Sunday having a roast dinner, and it's an opportunity to have conversations maybe that you wouldn't have done [00:34:00] otherwise that can bring up things that maybe are affecting your wellbeing.

Craig: Yeah, and I think that, I think that, I think that's very true. We live very busy lives and I think it's one of the pleasures and joys that that, that we often miss out on. It's, you know, when where you're lucky enough to have that family situation there and you, you as a child you can, you can almost smell the roast chicken from your bedroom

and it drags you down to the dining room a place you want to be. And yeah, I think often those kind of elements are lost. Where they are lost. I think we should kind of rediscover and if you haven't got that situation to work on, create your own rituals, and, and take yourself away from the tv, the screens, the iPads, and just e even if it's just a simple preparation of some food.

And then sitting, eating [00:35:00] and drinking with no disturbance, just focus on, on that moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's being present. That's the word I'm thinking of. It's being present in those moments because for a lot of us, life is chaos and life is a challenge but I think the benefits of doing that it could make a, a difference to somebody's day. 

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. Those opportunities aren't they? To, to stop and appreciate and enjoy.

Craig: Yes. Yeah. And try and try and put aside all the other worries and hustle and bustle and chaos around you. I think, and I know it works for, it works for me. 

Sarah: Yeah. But I know even in Rugby there's opportunities to sort of even meet people through food. There's all, there's, you know, various pizza evenings or whatever, but there's also, from a more spiritual perspective, they have things like cacao ceremonies 

Craig: Oh yeah.

And 

Sarah: things like that. So it's [00:36:00] interesting. It's wider than just purely what you're putting in your mouth .

There is clearly a link between flavour and, psychology and the link between the experience you have eating food and mindfully enjoying the sensations and the flavours that you're getting from it, and the sort of overall experience that you are having.

Craig: I think that's absolutely right and I think it's, um, some of it takes you back, you know, you go back to, uh, I just started eating cream of chicken soup, right? Of all things. Oxtail soup as well.

For some reason, those two particular flavours take me right back to good times back as a child. I dunno why. Yeah. But, so I just thought, well, I'll buy 'em again. And so yeah. So, so my cupboard now, uh, a standby comfort food and that's got to really tell [00:37:00] us a lot about how strong, uh, an influence psychologically food flavour, uh, has on us.

Um, yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: And that it doesn't have to be a strong flavour in order to do that. 'Cause both of the products you just mentioned aren't particularly strongly flavoured, are they? No, 

Craig: just, just, uh, it's just evocative, you know? Yeah. It just, it's, uh, and I'm sure everybody, everybody's got an example that they can point to.

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. And it, it's just being conscious of it, isn't it and being able to reach for those things that make you feel good at the moments when you need a boost. 

Craig: Oh, absolutely. And we talk about comfort food all the time, don't we? I mean, usually it's a bit of indulgence chocolate or something, but it could also be just Yeah.

A tin, a oxtail soup. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Craig: Why not? 

Sarah: Perfect. 

Craig: The other thing, we kind of touched on it.

It's like the things we remember being told by our parents. When you sat at the, at the table and one of them was always chew your food. [00:38:00] And it was always like, you know, 'cause you know, as a child you're knocking it all down to try and get out of the door. And my, my, my mother would always say, you know, chew your food.

It's bad for you if you don't chew your food. And here, presto, I'm now 60 ... something. I'm working with researchers that are producing scientific publications saying, how much better for you is it when you chew your food? I haven't gone back to my mother and said, you know, mom, you were right.

Sarah: You were 

right all those years ago. 

Craig: I can only take so 

many. Told you sos Yeah. 

Sarah: We talk about some of this ancient wisdom in some of the podcasts that we've then translated into to modern day, but actually some of it has come down and we're just assuming it's what our moms said and therefore we're rejecting it.

Yeah. But actually it all, it usually comes from somewhere, doesn't it? So it's interesting. That's right. To see the research is almost catching up 

Craig: Yep. No, no. That abs absolutely true. 

Sarah: I love it. Fantastic. [00:39:00] Well, I've really enjoyed our chat today, Craig. 

Craig: No, 

likewise, 

Sarah: there were so many elements to it.

This link Yes. Between, feeling good and, and flavour really came through strong. So thank you so much for giving us your insights. If anybody would like to, um, hear some more his thoughts about science, um, then by all means have a look at his LinkedIn posts.

There 

should be a health warning attached to that.

So thank you for joining us today, Craig. 

Craig: Yeah, thanks for, thanks for asking me along. It's been good fun.

Sarah: What a fascinating conversation with Craig. I have to admit, I'll never look at my meals the same way again. The key takeaways for me. First, that losing our sense of taste and smell as many experience through illness or aging, has a profound impact on mental health and [00:40:00] quality of life.

It really highlighted just how fundamental these senses are to our wellbeing. Second. Second, the power of mindful eating. Craig's description of eating as almost a meditative state really resonated with me taking time to actually taste our food, to notice the aromas to be present when we are consuming.

That's a wellness practice hiding in plain sight. Third, being more adventurous with flavour when making healthier choices. Whether you are trying meat free days or just wanting to make vegetables more appealing, don't forget about your herb and spice cupboard.

As Craig pointed out, we often reach for salt and sugar when actually a bit of chilli, some fresh herbs or different spices could transform a simple dish and make healthy eating genuinely [00:41:00] enjoyable. And I loved our discussion about comfort foods and how certain flavours can transport us instantly. Back to positive memories, whether it's Craig's Chicken Soup or your own childhood favorite.

These aren't just indulgences, they're emotional anchors that genuinely boost our wellbeing when we need it. Perhaps most importantly, we talked about slowing down in our world of fast food and eating in front of screens, simply taking time to chew properly, to taste our food and create rituals around eating.

These small acts can have a big impact on how we feel. Here's my challenge to you and me this week. Try having at least one mindful meal. Put away the distractions. Really taste what you're eating. Notice the flavours and the textures. And maybe raid that [00:42:00] spice rack while you're at it, see if you can turn mealtime into both a moment of presence and the flavour adventure. Craig mentioned that his mother always told him to chew his food properly and decades later, science is proving she was right. Sometimes the simplest wisdom, whether it comes from our parents or from just paying attention to what makes us feel good is the most powerful.

If you've enjoyed this exploration, don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. I've got more fascinating conversations coming up that will challenge how you think about wellness and give you practical tools to feel better every day. Until next time, I'm Sarah. And remember, there's many paths to wellness and sometimes they involve consciously appreciating opportunities to pause and concentrate on something [00:43:00] delicious.​