Exploring a Performer's Perspective with Mat

What does performing do for wellbeing of the person on stage?
 
In this moving conversation, host Sarah Gorev chats with Mat Ricardo - a cabaret and variety performer who's been entertaining audiences for nearly 40 years - about something most of us never consider: how being on stage actually supports his wellbeing.
 
 Mat shares his remarkable journey from being a shy, stuttering kid locked away in his bedroom to becoming a confident performer. But here's the twist - he didn't just learn to perform. He deliberately constructed a version of himself that helped him exist in the world!
 
 You'll discover:
 • Why the stage became Mat's unexpected safe space - the place where he feels most in control
 • How creating one version of yourself can transform all the other parts
 • What happened when Mat received his autism diagnosis three years ago
 • The concept of "masking" and why unmasking is such profound work
 • His beautiful pre-show ritual
 • Why distraction isn't shallow - it's actually a collective mindful moment
 • The "fantastic weirdos" backstage who became his chosen family
 
Mat also talks about his brilliant new book "The Magic in You" - what his publisher called a "stealth help book." Disguised as a guide to circus tricks, magic, and comedy, it's actually teaching kids about dealing with failure, handling bullying, building friendships, and understanding mental health. (And yes, it includes how to pick locks!)
 
This conversation explores creativity, identity, neurodiversity, and finding wellness in surprising places. Mat's honesty about the autism diagnosis being the beginning of a journey (not the end) and the work of figuring out which parts of yourself are there to make others comfortable will resonate far beyond the neurodivergent community.
 
Whether you're interested in the creative process, curious about how we construct the versions of ourselves we need to be, or simply want to hear a genuinely different perspective on wellness, this episode offers something special.
 
It's warm, honest, occasionally funny, and proves that safe spaces show up in the most unexpected places.
 
Perfect for: Anyone interested in creativity and wellbeing, neuro-diversity, autism, performing arts, personal transformation, or simply hearing real conversations about finding your own path to wellness.
 
Mat's book "The Magic in You" is available now: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Magic-You-Mat-Ricardo/dp/0571383963 

Find Mat on social media and YouTube for tour dates and his beautiful short films.

Website: https://www.matricardo.com/

Substack (new things every month): https://matricardo.substack.com/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MatRicardo

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matricardo

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/matricardo

Thanks for listening.

Transcript

Exploring a Performer's Perspective with Mat

​[00:00:00] 

Sarah: when we think about wellness and performing, we usually think about how watching a brilliant show makes us feel, the laughter, the joy, the collective buzz of being in an audience together. But what about the person on stage? Welcome back to Exploring Ways To Wellness. I'm Sarah, and today I'm chatting to someone I consider a bit of a celebrity, the incredibly talented Mat Ricardo.

Mat is a cabaret and variety performer who's been entertaining audiences for nearly 40 years, and if you ever get a chance to see him live, absolutely take it. But this conversation isn't really about performance. It's about something unexpected. We explore what being on stage actually does for Mat's wellbeing, where he feels [00:01:00] most himself, and why creating a version of yourself for one part of your life can transform all the other parts too.

It is an honest conversation about creativity, identity, finding your safe space in surprising places, and what happens when you discover something about yourself that reframes your entire life. Whether you are interested in the creative process, curious about how we construct versions of ourselves that we need to be, or simply want to hear a genuinely different perspective on wellness.

This episode offers something special. Let's dive in.

 welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I have something particularly special for you this week welcome Mat. 

Mat: Thank you very much. Happy to be here. 

Sarah: Also very much excited, as you can probably [00:02:00] tell, 

I have seen you on stage many times.

My family has enjoyed you on stage many times.

So in terms of performing, how did you get into performing in the first place? 

Mat: I was a very shy kid. I was one of those kids that was always happiest, locked away in my bedroom, making something or, and I had a really bad stutter.

So I was absolutely not destined to be a performer, but it's one of those weird things. I was on holiday with my parents when I was in my sort of young teens. And I saw a street performer a busker, and he was a juggler and he wasn't a particularly good juggler but he was a really good showman.

He was funny and charismatic and anarchic and just, um, just amazing. And I watched his show and then I watched his next show and then I watched all of his shows. [00:03:00] Um. Then next year, 'cause we used to go on holiday to a a, a festival time. So next year he was there again. And I, that was the year that I realised I wasn't his biggest fan.

I, I mean, I was, but also I wanted to be him. He was all the things that I wasn't, he was confident and cool and seemingly had no fear and could do cool things. And I just, I'd never seen anything like that and, and it blew my mind. So I, when I got home, I went to the pet shop and I bought three little rubber dog balls and I got, got a book from the library on how to juggle and I learned to juggle.

Sarah: Yeah. 

I did think you were gonna say you bought a rabbit then that's like straight in at the deep end. Yeah. Went to the pet shop, got 

Mat: sidetracked. Um, long story short, I now breed parrots. And yeah. And it, it's weird 'cause I was still very shy and I just wanted to [00:04:00] learn this thing that I'd seen this cool guy do.

But of course, unbeknownst to me, at least consciously, I was learning a, an art that is to be performed. So I just naturally kind of thought, well, I have to start doing shows now. And people that knew me. Were very shocked that this shy kid with a stutter would want to do things in front of people and, you know, and like, I think a year later, maybe a couple of years later, I did my first bit of busking and, and lost the stutter.

The more I performed, you know, the more I did comedy and, and spoke, the stutter vanished. And I got more confident and, you know, yeah. So that. That kind of seeing that juggler and learning to juggle totally turned my life around, not just professionally and artistically, but you know, for my own wellbeing.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. So did you find then you had like two personas, the onstage version and the offstage [00:05:00] version? Or did the onstage version almost start to become like it seep into your off stage? 

Mat: That is a brilliant question and that is exactly what happened. So as the little shy stuttering kid, I was not happy.

Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, as you, as you learn to perform, and it took, you know, a, a good number of years as you start to perform and you get, if not good, then competent, you know, at, at performing. You create a version of yourself for performing. And it's not like I was playing a different character or a different person, but the per, you know, the onstage version of me was the, the cooler one.

The, the, the more competent one, the, the, the one that knows what he's doing. And also the one that didn't stutter and the one that was funny and was charming and all the things that the real person. The real kid wanted to be, you know, that everyone wants to be. 

Sarah: Yeah. [00:06:00] That's fascinating. You ended up inspiring yourself to be you.

Mat: I, it, it's interesting 'cause I've always said, you know, 'cause my, the name I was born under isn't Mat Ricardo. Okay. Um, Mat Ricardo is, I guess what you would call a stage name, but I've had this name since I was. 18. So it's not a stage name it's my label. You know, the, the other name doesn't really apply to me, it applies to the kid, you know.

So I very deliberately, over the course of at least a decade, constructed a version of myself for stage that I was more happy with that, that made me feel more able to exist. Um. That stage version helped the off stage version. Yeah. So, you know, and you know, I did it very obviously I changed my name, but I think everyone does this to an extent.

Everyone constructs their adult self in a direction that they [00:07:00] want to go in, you know? But I just did it because I'm in the arts. I did it more kind of, obviously. 

Sarah: Yeah. And you've, you've clearly found that sort of outlet as well for your creativity.

You may have started by following something that you'd seen and you, a appealed to you, but obviously you've sort of take, I dunno if you want to speak to listeners a little bit about what it is that you do.

Mat: Yeah, it's annoyingly, I mean, I've been doing this stupid job for nearly 40 years now, and I still can't really describe it like in a simple sentence, people say, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, well, kind of complicated. It's a bit of this, it's a bit of that. Yeah. Um, so I, I'm, I'm a cabaret and variety performer.

I my sort of training is juggling I consider myself in terms of technical. Skills, I'm a juggler. But I don't really do much juggling and what I do, a lot of people don't really see as juggling. It's complicated. See I'm also a comedian, so [00:08:00] I essentially do, um, I work at festivals and in cabaret and I kind of work in every

sort of venue you can imagine, which is something I really like about, about what I do. And I do tricks and jokes. I am known for in, in my tiny world. Um, I am known for a trick with a tablecloth that I invented where everyone knows the trick, where you pull the tablecloth out from underneath all the things. I created

the idea of putting the tablecloth back on the table underneath all the things. So that's kind of my signature trick. But yeah, I do tricks and jokes. Um. Try and push that really simple and very old idea. I kind of push it in as interesting a direction as I can. I try and make it personal.

I try and make it a little interesting, a little, you know, it's, it's a thing that's easy to do generically, but that also means it's easy to do in a, in a slightly more [00:09:00] sort of personal and groundbreaking perhaps way. That's what I try and do. 

Sarah: I find it really fascinating how you sort of, you are improving the wellbeing of the people in the audience, in, in giving them that sort of.

Boost of endorphins and people feeling great leaving your show. I mean, it's a very upbeat show in that sense. You know, you, there's a lot of clapping, there's a lot of laughing, there's a lot of kind of community of everyone being together and enjoying themselves at that time. So it's really interesting for me to see how that's reflected by the person on stage.

Mm. You know, what they get from it as well. I mean, do you find this sort of a lot of adrenaline gets you through or you, you know, after 40 years now, it sort of just becomes a job? Or is the, is it that spark every time you get up on stage? 

Mat: Yeah, I, I think, I think part of the job is to make sure it doesn't just feel like a job.

You know, I, I, I think if you are not, if you're just going [00:10:00] through the motions, then, I mean, you can do that in any job and most other jobs pay better! Do, I get the spark of adrenaline. To an extent. Yeah. Live work is so much about community, that's a, a perfect choice of word. So when something happens that is unforeseen, that is funny and silly and, and me and the audience and everyone are united in one moment of ha, that's beautiful. It gets no better than that, I think generally what I feel on stage is I don't kind of go, yeah, let's go, woo. You know, I don't get that kind of hyped upness, but. I get a sense of comfort. Performing is, is usually my kind of safe space. It's where I feel that I know what I'm doing the most and it's just a really nice feeling to, to be in that flow state and to have an audience coming with you on that and, being on a kind of journey through an act or show.

It, it's what I always say, you know, the [00:11:00] point of entertainment and particularly I think live entertainment is to, is distraction, which kind of feels a little cynical and a little kind of shallow, but, but it is, it's, it's, you come into a theatre or cabaret venue and it's job and, and the performer's job is to make you forget what's outside of that venue.

The outside world. Your troubles, your worries. That's the job of us. And the thing is that also works for the performers. You know, that's also true for the performers. So when I'm on stage performing, you know, in, in one of my favourite sort of London burlesque clubs or cabaret clubs me and the audience were in the same place of being able to forget about anything outside the club and just have a cocktail put on the pretty lights and be silly on stage, and I think that is quite important. 

Sarah: That's incredible. I haven't really thought about it like that. It is almost like this sort of collective mindful moment of just being in the [00:12:00] moment.

Mat: Yeah. 

Sarah: You are all enjoying that together. And you know, your mobile phones are away. All the distractions of the day and family and work and everything has all just been put to one side for that moment. 

Mat: Yeah. Yeah. Time, time slows down and everything looks cooler in a, you know, once the, the spotlight's on, um, you know, there are many times when I've been having horrible days.

I've been working in the evening and I think people might think, oh, that's even worse. You have to go and pretend to have fun on stage. And it's like, no, no, no, no. If if I can get myself to the, into the wings, then once I'm on stage, it'll be a lot easier. You know, these people in the audience, they'll help, which, is that healthy or not? I'm not sure. 

Sarah: Well, I mean, it, it works, doesn't it? So it 

Mat: works. It works for me. It works for them. So it seems okay. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Have you found that you have any [00:13:00] additional reasons why performing would be more of a challenge or more of a benefit to your wellbeing?

Mat: It's hard for me to, to tell you what, like, how it would be for me if I wasn't a performer. 'cause I've always been a performer. For a, for decades before I could even put words and descriptions to my mental illness and neurodiversity, I was already a performer, mm-hmm. Um, there was a kind of. You know, this, this kind of feeds into the idea that a lot of people have that, that artists ha have a higher frequency of, of mental illness and neurodivergence and I, I'm not sure that's true. I think that's one of those things where well, artists just get to talk about it and get to include that in their work because a lot of artists, you know, make autobiographical work.

Even me really? You know, I don't think [00:14:00] that. That, that painters are any more or less sad than, uh, you know, refuse collectors. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Mat: Um, 

Sarah: and you can't necessarily tell from the type of work that the person is doing. Can you, so a clown could be really depressed or could be really happy person, just as somebody who's doing quite a sort of dark play.

Could be either or as well. So this sort of. Everything is represented just as in the community. Everything is represented. 

Mat: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Sarah: So I guess the, the spotlight is more on performers and I guess maybe because they have that platform, then there's some sort of expectation that when things come up, then they will use their platform to discuss them.

But its, even that's not necessarily appropriate to the individual. No, absolutely. 

Mat: Yeah. But I know 

Sarah: you have, have used your platform fairly recently to discuss the fact that you had an autism diagnosis. Is that what you would call it? [00:15:00] Diagnosis that, yep. 

Mat: It's a diagnosis, yeah. 

Sarah: Since having that diagnosis, how has that affected your performing or how do you reflect on your performing in a different way?

Mat: That's a good question. Yeah. Yeah. I, I got my diagnosis about, about three years ago, I think, just, yeah, about three years ago. And, you know, I'm an idiot, so I thought that getting my diagnosis would be kind of the end of the journey. You know, the journey of, oh, let's find this out, is, then I would find out yes or no. And you go, right, okay, that's that done. We can move. Of course it's the beginning of a journey, right? I'm an idiot. So it is, it's a lot to process and I'm, I still feel just at the beginning point of that journey, you know, getting an autism diagnosis it, you have to kind of reframe all of your previous life with the new knowledge.

And it's, it's super helpful, but it's not, it's [00:16:00] not, not painful. Um, in terms of how it's affected my performing that's a really good question. I'm not sure that it has, I don't know if that's because, you know, whether I knew it or not, I was always neurodiverse, so I was always, you know, the person I'm it's.

It's affected. So there's, there's this phenomena in, and this is gonna sound weird. There's a phenomena in, in the autistic community of, of masking which is this kind of putting in personal effort to kind of hide your autistic traits and, and blend in more effectively with the non-autistic world, and it's exhausting and it leads to a lot of pain for autistic people.

Um, so I've started to try and unmask and that's. Hard because you have to go through the jour, the journey of [00:17:00] what am I doing that is masking right? You know, which parts of my personality and my life and my habits are there to make other people more comfortable, but they make me less comfortable.

Sarah: Mm. 

Mat: So there's that. 

Sarah: So it's got consciousness to elements that you weren't necessarily conscious of before. 

Mat: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's affected my life off stage massively, but on stage, not much. 

Sarah: Which again, maybe, maybe that does tie into having

the persona on stage that, that you sort of use. And off stage it's, it's sort of more who is Mat and as, as any human being is questioning themselves and their purpose and all of that kind of thing. But you know what you're doing when you get on stage, you step in 

Mat: exactly 

Sarah: the performer and as you say, like you, you have always been you. So you don't know how, if I didn't 

Mat: exactly. [00:18:00] 

Sarah: If I wasn't neurodiverse or if I didn't have autism, like how that would present on stage. 

Are there others, performers that you know, that have also been on a similar journey? 

Mat: Many journey of many, many, many, many.

Yeah. And of course there's this, you know, there's this idea that, oh, everyone's autistic now and there are no more neurodiverse people than there ever were. But now, you know, there is slightly more available diagnosis. It's what I always say. We didn't know Pluto was there until 1926, but it was always there.

We just didn't have a telescope. It's really interesting what what you said about, about my, when I'm on stage, it, it's like. On stage is the thing that I am a hundred percent in control of. So for decades, I've crafted that unknowingly to be a, a place that, that, that helps me, that, that will support me, that will, you know, make things easy for me.

So that's [00:19:00] why it hasn't changed. It's like I, before I knew that I was autistic, I was already. In, in the small area in which I had control, I was creating a, a, a good space for myself. It's in the real world where I have less control where things impact. 

Sarah: That's really fascinating because somebody who is not a performer.

Maybe we'll consider things to be the other way around. Like if you're standing up and you're in the public eye, you know, on stage that you would be less in control of what happens because the audience is a big part of what happens. But I guess, as you say, over these years, you've crafted this space, that means you can react.

You know, you have that confidence that I can react to whatever happens. Yeah, whether it's something on stage or presumably you've had almost anything happen off stage as well. 

Mat: Oh, I could tell you some stories. Um, yeah, it's, it is weird because one of the things that, one of the classic things that cause pain for autistic people is like the [00:20:00] unexpected and changing plans and, and stuff.

And of course, when I'm on stage I love to improvise. I, um embrace going off on tangents and, and engaging with hecklers, and I love all that stuff. And it would seem completely opposed to how, you know, an autistic brain would want things. But I think it's because I'm, I'm doing that.

I'm, I'm encouraging the unexpected within a structure that I have created and I'm in charge of. 

Sarah: Incredible. Yeah. 

Mat: Yeah. It's weird, isn't it? 

Sarah: I mean, seriously, it's, it's very impressive that you, it's, you've managed to do that. 

Mat: It's complicated. Yeah. 

Sarah: I mean, it works. I've seen, I've seen Mat on stage.

It definitely works. 

Mat: So far, so good. 

Sarah: It works. Yeah. So do you have any special practices other than the being in control of your space? Do you have any special practices you would do before going on stage? From a wellbeing perspective to sort of either keep yourself 

Mat: Hmm. 

Sarah: Um, safe, to keep yourself in control.

Mat: [00:21:00] Yeah. I mean, it would depend on how I'm feeling that day, you know? I, from a purely kind of pragmatic chemical point of view, I will have a coffee about an hour before I go on stage. Because partly because, coffee's a very useful drug when you need to be all bouncy on stage when you are 56.

But also I like coffee. I like the ritual of coffee and it gets me into a nice, so when I'm on tour, which I am at the moment, quite a lot. I am that guy that brings his own espresso machine. Um, oh, 

Sarah: I love that. Wow. 

Mat: Uh, which is, it is like simultaneous. You see Super cool and super not cool. Um, 

Sarah: I love that, 

that you would turn up and they'd say, do you want a coffee?

And you're like, no, I want a plug. I want a plug point. 

Mat: It's exact exactly the situation I travel with this little. This little bag that's got a, a portable espresso machine. I travel with some coffee beans, a grinder. 

Sarah: Oh, wow. [00:22:00] 

Mat: So I get to my dressing room and I, I set up everything. But it's really nice because like an hour before the show starts, I grind my beans and make my coffee.

And that nice ritual that gets me in the right zone and you know that, that's nice. I'm really lucky when I work in cabaret and, and burlesque and stuff, I'm always with a backstage full of performers, almost a hundred percent that I love and admire. And that are the most diverse gang of fantastic weirdos.

So it's nice. It's just really nice to be with people that. Do the same thing as you for largely the same reasons. They understand it. They are, you know, sweet and rounded people and, you know, it, it's just a, that really helps. I, I, I find I much prefer doing that too if I'm on tour with just my, my solo show and it's just me.

That's nice. But I really like just being in a [00:23:00] backstage with a bunch of friends. That's nice. 

Sarah: It sounds like those are friends that within their own industry they are themselves, they are comfortable just being, , rather than having some expectation of a certain, type of celebrity attached. It's just actually a group of creative performers and entertainers 

Mat: Yeah. 

Sarah: Who just do their thing and love it. 

Mat: Yeah. Exactly. They're all real, like real artists.

And, you know, they're, I mean, in cabaret, nobody owns a lot of money. It's a, we are not rich and famous. And that's why it's good. That's why the people that are doing it are doing it for the right reasons, yeah. In terms of, I, I, I don't have many sort of habits or, you know, a lot of performers have little sort of, things that they think bring them luck that they do just before they go out and all that stuff.

I, I don't really have that apart from the coffee. But what I do, the one thing I do do, if I [00:24:00] feel that I need a little, just a little boost of kind of, I don't know, good feeling before I go out on stage. There's a thing that, you know, the, uh, the talk show host, uh, Stephen Colbert? 

Sarah: Yes. 

Mat: He mentioned doing this in an interview and it's what he does, and it just, and I tried it and it really works.

So what I do is. Just before when I'm standing in the wings, just before I go out in the sort of 30 seconds before I go out, I imagine that just out of my eye line backstage, there's a particular one, one particular old friend who I adore and who is no longer with us, and you just let yourself believe they're there and then you look over.

You imagine they're there and you kind of go get that feeling of, oh, you are here and then you walk out and it's this really weird thing, but it's just like, it just gives you this little feeling of joy. 

Sarah: Yes. 

Mat: [00:25:00] Um, and Stephen Colbert does that before he comes out on stage every night on TV, and I do it occasionally when I feel that I need that extra boost.

Really works. 

Sarah: Wow. That's incredible. And definitely a tip I'll be using at some point. 

Mat: It's really odd little self hypnosis 

thing. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. Incredible. And then is there anything afterwards, do you find that you need to have some kind of recovery time or are you straight in the car and off home?

Um 

Mat: hmm.

It depends on the gig. Yeah. If I'm doing a sort of a sort of club where I'm getting the train home, then I, I do quite like the feeling and it is purely. Just me kind of pursuing a kind of cinematic, like romantic idea of what I do. But I do like the feeling of having that, that heat and that sweat on your body that you generate on stage and taking that outside and walking home with that feeling.

Oh yeah. It's a really nice feeling. It's, someone [00:26:00] described it as, you know, the applause still ringing in you ears as you are getting on the train, you know? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Mat: That's a nice feeling. That little bit of adrenaline from, from the show gets me home, yeah. But also, you know, I, I really like, like my favourite place to be on a, on a bill of performance.

Obviously it's always nice to headline, but my actual secret, favourite place to be in a bill is at the end of the first half so I can close one section of the show, and that's always nice. Then I can pack all my stuff away. And then I can go out the front and have a drink and watch the other half of the show and watch my friends.

You've got the, you've got the endorphins in you from having performed, so you, so I feel confident and okay socialising, which I don't usually I'll get a cocktail from the bar and I'll sit at the back and I'll watch the show and it's just, it's so great watching your friends be cool, 

Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And knowing you can enjoy it with them afterwards as well. And I guess there's again, that sort of collective feeling afterwards, [00:27:00] that joy of knowing that you've, you've all done such a fantastic job and 

Mat: It's a real chosen family. I, I consider them my family. 

Sarah: Yeah. I love it.

People can go and see you. Mat, have you got any shows coming up for Christmas or anything? 

Mat: Yeah, I am, I'm on tour at the moment with a big burlesque show called An Evening of Burlesque, which we play all the kind of big theatres around, um around the country. Um, and I do a sort of 20 minute spot in that. And also at the end I dance, so I'm 

Sarah: Oh wow. 

I haven't seen that. 

That sounds worth it. Nobody wants 

Mat: that. I was forced into it. Um, and even worse, I've started enjoying it and that does not bode well, not for the medium of dance.

And. Yeah, it's weird. My, my, my work is kind of all over the place and sporadic, and so the, the best way to find out where I'm gonna be next is to follow me on social media, and I usually post about the fun shows, 

Sarah: [00:28:00] Yeah. I'll make sure that all the links to your social media are, um, in the show notes for listeners.

So I would encourage people to go there and have a look at that. I would also. Definitely encourage people to go on YouTube as well. You have the most amazing channel on YouTube of your musings and just things that come to you and experiences that you have, and, um, they're beautiful. They're absolutely beautiful.

Mat: Thank you so much 

Sarah: the way that you've shot them. So I encourage people to go and have a look there as well. But another thing, and another reason why I wanted to speak to you today is the fact that you have a new book out. Which Yes. Um, really intrigued me because when I first saw it, I thought, oh, this is a magic book for children.

But actually when I delved into it, I thought there's more to this. So yeah. Would you mind talking us through a little bit about why you wrote the book and what it covers? 

Mat: Yeah. Thank you by the way. Yes. My book is, it's called The Magic in You. And. It's, [00:29:00] yeah, as you say, it's not, it's not quite what it appears to be, although it is that too.

It is on, its, on the surface it is a sort of, uh, encyclopedia of amazing things that anyone can learn. So there's a chapter on circus tricks. There's a chapter on magic, a chapter on comedy, a chapter on science, and a chapter on like, fun spy tricks and survival stuff. So that's that, you know, that that is what it is.

And there's tons and tons of tricks and explanations of how to do them. But what it's also about is how to be a slightly happier person possibly. And when I had a meeting with my publisher, they came up with this phrase and. I simultaneously hate and love this phrase, they called it a stealth help book.

Sarah: Oh, wow. Oh, that's good. 

Mat: I hate how good that is. So like the circus chapter is really about how to deal with [00:30:00] failure. Because when you're learning any trick, you can't do it and you fail. And society kind of tells you that if you fail, then you are a loser. And that's ridiculous. Anyone when they start juggling cannot juggle.

That's why you're learning. Yeah. But still, you feel when you try and juggle and you can't because you haven't learned, you still feel bad. And that's weird. 'cause you, of course you can't. So it's about how to reframe failure as in fact learning. 

Sarah: I remember, I, I did follow some videos you did with the kids when I think it was during lockdown. Mm. You did some juggling videos. Yes. And it was much about like failing, failing on purpose to begin with. Yeah. On purpose, dropping the ball just so that you knew what it was like, and how to recover from that.

Yeah. And not to be frightened about the fact that this will happen lots of time. Yeah, exactly. And that's part of learning. Yeah, 

Mat: yeah. When I first, my first lesson when I teach someone to juggle is to throw the ball up and make no attempt to catch it and just let it fall. And then you go, right, that is a drop.

That will happen a [00:31:00] lot. And here's how to feel about it, you know? And, and that's really key. 

So yeah, the circus chapter is about failure. The comedy chapter is about bullying. The magic chapter is about friendship.

The science chapter is about critical thinking and. When someone tells you something, how to find out if it's true or not, which I think in the, the social media world kids are in now is useful. 

Sarah: Essential. 

Mat: Yeah. And then the final chapter, uh, with the spy stuff, and it is, it's about mental health really.

Books, take ages. You know, I'm, I'm a show business person. I'm used to someone calling me on Monday and saying, you're free on Friday. Mm. Books take years. Yeah. Um, but yes, it is, it is on sale now, and I'm, I'm kind of. Quite low key on most of the things that I do.

Am I performing? I'm like, oh, yeah, it's fun. It's an, with the book, I'm actually quite proud of myself. 

Sarah: Yeah, you should be. 

Mat: I'm letting myself 

do that, you know? 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You, [00:32:00] you should be proud of it. It's an incredible achievement. And, um, again, I would suggest to any parents out there to have a look at it.

And they'll probably find themselves reading it themselves as well as passing it on to, uh, to any children. What, what is the ideal sort of age? Is it aimed at. 

Mat: Because publishing is kind of works in, in like age chunks, so I think technically it's between nine and, and 12, nine and 13, I think that's 

Sarah: okay.

Mat: But really it's, I think it's from about eight and then up upwards into adulthood, yeah. I mean, it is written for kids, but it, it's, it's kind of funny. Or I hope it's kind of funny. And, you know, you can learn to do things and everyone likes to learn to do something, you know, some cool little magic trick or something.

I am, my, my favourite thing about the book is I put one thing in that I assumed they would not let me keep in the book. I thought, you know, you right, you, you write too much. And there was one bit I thought, well, they'll [00:33:00] cut this, but let's just, let's I wanna see, you know, and it was how to pick locks.

They let me keep it in. 

Sarah: Oh. 

Mat: So kids can learn to actually genuinely pick locks. Which it kind of, I was like, are you sure? And my publisher like, yeah, we think it's brilliant. I was like, okay. Okay, fine. Enjoy the emails you're gonna get. But 

Sarah: I, but sometimes you do need to just put, it sounds like you've got a fantastic publisher, number one.

Mat: I really have. Yeah. 

Sarah: Sometimes you just need to sort of push the envelope a bit, don't you?

Mat: It's true. 

Sarah: Depending on how you approach it. It's valuable. 

Mat: I think the lock picking thing or, you know, it is a bit of mischief in the book, but I think also it's kind of, it's a really good symbol for how I'm approaching this because it is.

Everyone relies on locks. Most people don't really know how they work. And that's interesting that your house is secured by a small thing that you don't really understand, but you trust it. So I think, you know, to, to learn to pick locks, you [00:34:00] have to learn how a lock works. So that's interesting. Um.

Then once you have that sort of superpower of being able to pick locks, then you have to be a, a good person. Now it becomes a moral thing Here's what you can use it for. Here's what you shouldn't use it for. I think that's for a young person, there's knowledge there, there's learning about the world, there's learning about their own morality that, that's interesting stuff, just in one little skill.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the best bit is they probably don't realise how much they're learning because it's put in a format that's fun and it's, you know. 

Mat: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. If, if it's fun, they're motivated, they'll, they will find themselves. Learning and doing homework for me. 

Sarah: Yes. Oh, fantastic.

Wonderful. Well, I could talk to you forever, Mat. This was absolutely fantastic. I really appreciate you spending some time with us today. Pleasure and sharing your experiences, 

Mat: pleasure 

Sarah: I'll put some links in the show notes, including, I'm sure the, there'll be some, uh, bookshop links in there that we can, [00:35:00] uh, add in as well.

But, uh, thank you. Thank you so much. 

Mat: Oh, thank you. 

 What a joy that conversation was. Mat is exactly as warm and thoughtful off stage as he is entertaining on stage, and I hope you felt that come through. There are so many brilliant insights from today's chat, but a few things really stayed with me. First, the idea that performing being on stage in front of people can actually be someone's safe space.

Mat described it as the place where he has the most control, where he's crafted an environment over decades that supports him. For many of us being in the spotlight will be terrifying. But Mat shows us that wellness looks different for everyone and sometimes our safe spaces are in the most unexpected places.

[00:36:00] I loved his honesty about the autism diagnosis being the beginning of a journey, not the end. That understanding of unmasking. Figuring out which parts of yourself are there to make others comfortable versus making you comfortable. It's profound work that goes beyond neurodiversity.

I think we all do some version of masking, don't we? And that ritual he shared about imagining a loved friend from just out of sight before going on stage. That little moment of joy and connection before performing. Beautiful. I'll definitely be trying that myself. The concept of distraction being the point of live entertainment really struck me too.

It's not shallow it's actually quite, quite powerful. Creating a space where everyone, including the performer can forget the outside world and just be present together. [00:37:00] It's almost like a collective mindful moment, isn't it? Phones away. Trouble set to one side, just sharing an experience in real time.

I also loved hearing about his chosen family backstage, that community of fantastic weirdos who understand each other because they do the same thing for the same reasons. That sense of belonging and acceptance is so vital to our wellbeing. And Mat's book, the Magic In You. What a brilliant concept. A stealth help book that teaches kids circus tricks, magic and comedy, while actually teaching them about dealing with failure, handling bullying, building friendships, and understanding mental health Genius.

If you want to see Mat perform, follow him on social media. I've put all the links in the show notes. He's touring with An Evening of Burlesque that's [00:38:00] happening now. And yes, apparently he's dancing in it. I haven't seen it yet, so I might need to just catch another show myself.

Also check out his YouTube channel. It's full of beautiful short films and musings that are genuinely moving. And of course The Magic In You is available now, aimed at ages eight to 13. But honestly, it sounds like adults will get just as much from it.

Thank you so much to Mat for such an honest, warm, and genuinely different conversation about wellness and performing. Until next time, take care of yourselves. And remember, there are many paths to wellness, and the best one is the one that makes you feel most like yourself, even if it's somewhere unexpected.