Exploring Forgiveness with Jane

What if the thing that's been holding you back — in your relationships, your work, your sense of self — has absolutely nothing to do with anything that's happened recently? And what if one of the most powerful things you could do for your health isn't a supplement, a practice, or a morning routine, but forgiveness? 

This week Sarah is joined by returning guest Dr Jane Lewis, Huna practitioner and coach, to explore ho'oponopono — an ancient Hawaiian approach to forgiveness that is a very long way from letting people off the hook. Before you decide this one isn't for you, Jane starts by dismantling everything most of us assume forgiveness means. It isn't condoning. It isn't forgetting. It isn't giving your power away to the person who hurt you. It's quite the opposite — and once that reframing lands, the rest of the conversation opens up in ways you might not expect. In this episode you'll hear about: 

• The three grades of offence in Hawaiian tradition — and why all of them deserve to be released 
• What psychologists call the state of not forgiving, and the very real physical impact it can have on the body over time 
• Jane's own deeply personal story of childhood bullying that resurfaced decades later as burnout and clinical depression — and how ho'oponopono was central to her recovery 
• Why the process can be done entirely in your own mind, takes as little as 10–15 minutes, and requires no contact with the person who hurt you How unresolved hurt shows up as patterns — in new workplaces, new relationships, new situations — long after you think you've moved on
•  Forgiveness in grief, and why sometimes the person we most need to forgive is someone we've lost 
• Generational forgiveness — and what happens when the baggage we're carrying isn't even ours to begin with 

Whether you're carrying something from years ago or simply curious about where this ancient practice fits in modern life, this is a quietly powerful conversation about one of the most overlooked tools for feeling better. 

Links mentioned in this episode:

Huna retreat in the South of France, between Carcassonne and Toulouse, 31st August to 4th September. (Accommodation is provided 30th August to 6th September)  https://soulstirmagic.com/huna-retreat-france

Curious about EFT tapping? If you've been feeling stressed, overwhelmed, or just not quite yourself lately, it could be just the thing. Host Sarah Gorev offers EFT and energy sessions via Zoom, plus virtual EFT tapping card decks if you'd like to explore at your own pace - find everything at tapintoyou.co.uk. Come and say hello on Instagram too @sarahgorev

This podcast is here to inform and inspire curiosity, not to tell you what to do. Everything discussed reflects the personal experiences of our guests, and Sarah doesn't personally endorse any particular practice or approach. You're always in the driving seat — it's entirely your choice whether to explore further. Where guests offer the chance to try things for yourself, you'll find links below. And as always, nothing here is suggested as a substitute for personalised advice from your own healthcare professionals.

Thanks for listening.

Transcript

Exploring forgiveness with Jane

​[00:00:00] 

[00:00:06] Sarah: Is there something you've been carrying for years, maybe even decades, that you keep telling yourself you've dealt with, but somehow it still has a grip on you? A hurt, a resentment, an old wound that surfaces every time life echoes something from the past. Welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I'm Sarah Gorev,

And this week I'm delighted to welcome back a returning guest, Dr Jane Lewis for a conversation I've genuinely been looking forward to since our last episode together on Huna Because within that conversation Jane touched on a Hawaiian forgiveness practice called ho'oponopono, and I needed to know more. Now, before you think you know where this is going, this isn't a conversation about letting people off the [00:01:00] hook, or forgiving and forgetting, or any of the things that most of us go, "Absolutely not." In fact, the first thing Jane does is to completely dismantle what we think forgiveness actually means, and once she does that, everything shifts.

In this episode, we explore the three grades of offense in Hawaiian tradition and why all of them deserve to be released. What psychologists actually call the state of not forgiving, and what that does to your body over time. Jane's own extraordinary story of childhood bullying that came back to bite her decades later in the corporate boardroom.

The beautiful simplicity of the ho'oponopono process itself, and why it can sometimes take just 10 to 15 minutes. We also talk about forgiveness and grief, in organisations and even across generations.

[00:02:00] Because, as Jane says, "You can't change the past, but you can heal it." If you ever thought forgiveness wasn't for you, this conversation might just change your mind. Let's get started 

welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness, and I am thrilled to have a returning guest with me today. You may remember the episode we had, uh, with Dr. Jane Lewis on Huna, which was absolutely fascinating, and within that there was a practice called ho'oponopono, and I just needed to know more.

So welcome back, Jane. 

[00:02:42] Jane: Thank you. Thank you so much, Sarah. It's really good to be back.

[00:02:46] Sarah: Oh, it's so lovely to see you and, I guess to start with, when I personally started looking into it was to understand what forgiveness is and isn't.

Do you mind, from your [00:03:00] perspective, just giving us a little insight into the term and, and what it really means? 

[00:03:06] Jane: Yeah. Different spiritual practices or faiths or religions, whatever, will give you different takes on forgiveness. So this is one that really is based on my Huna Hawaiian lineage and, and what I've learnt from that.

Now, there may be Hawaiians who say, "Well, no, that's not how we would see it," but this is how... in, in the lineage that I've studied, this is how we would talk about it. So let's start with what it isn't, because 

... That's where the big myths lie. So people often assume that forgiveness, this, this act of letting people off the hook- 

[00:03:49] Sarah: That's 

where I was coming from, to be honest-

[00:03:51] Jane: not. It absolutely is not letting people off the hook. It's not condoning bad behaviour. If [00:04:00] somebody has committed an unspeakable crime or a, a crime, then they should be handed over to the appropriate authorities and dealt with appropriately.

And in ancient times people would be... they might be executed for, uh, doing things that were considered inappropriate. But they would be forgiven. And there was actually a, a place of refuge in Hawaii, um, Honaunau. And if you got to Honaunau without either drowning or being killed by the guards who, who kept it sacred and safe, then you would be forgiven everything.

And that was your opportunity to start a whole new life. Anyway, it is not condoning bad behaviour or accepting bad behaviour. It isn't giving away your power to the person who has hurt you or abused you or wounded you or offended you in some way.

It's the opposite, in fact. It's liberating. It's taking back your power. Much of the time [00:05:00] we hurt somebody and we don't even know we've hurt them. 

So not forgiving somebody it's not a great strategy for revenge, to be honest.

[00:05:11] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:05:12] Jane: They may be aware. We may have told them or, and then it may be quite obvious, in some way. But even so, every time you say, "Well, I'm not giving, I'm not forgiving because..." You're giving your power straight back. 

[00:05:29] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. But I think some of those myths , they're probably reasons why people can't even consider- 

[00:05:37] Jane: Yeah

[00:05:38] Sarah: the, the thought of forgiving someone. 

[00:05:41] Jane: Yeah. 

[00:05:41] Sarah: Because, because, you know, that, that thought of, "How, how am I supposed to forget what they've done? How can I, excuse or condone what they've done?"

And actually, it, it sounds like it ends up being something that, you know, we need to recognise as part of us as much as it's part of them. Yeah. And I guess that's [00:06:00] where the release can come and the benefit can come. So, so you were saying about that what forgiveness really is then from your perspective.

[00:06:09] Jane: From a Huna perspective or the lineage of the studied perspective. Couple of things. One is there are three grades of offence, and all these grades should be forgiven. So the first grade is what they call hala. It's a mistake. I said something or I did something.

It wasn't my intention to hurt you. Unfortunately, it did. 

[00:06:28] Sarah: And 

[00:06:28] Jane: that's the one where I always use the, the school dinner lady example where a student on a course that I was teaching,

and he wriggled, and he wrestled, and he struggled, and didn't do what I, I said, "You need to do this. I'm not doing it for you. You need to do this." Anyway, we got him through. He got his 100%, which he needed to get open book, and he came up to me at the end and he, he thanked me for all my help, and he said, "Um, but I ha- have to say, Jane," he said, "it was difficult because you remind me [00:07:00] of my school dinner lady."

[00:07:02] Sarah: I bet he appreciated that. How would, how could I possibly 

[00:07:07] Jane: ever have known? You 

[00:07:09] Sarah: wouldn't have known, yeah. 

[00:07:11] Jane: So, you know, there are things, something in our tone of voice, something in the way we look- Yeah ... some gestures, some... we make a joke- 

[00:07:19] Sarah: Yeah ... 

[00:07:20] Jane: with the intention of, not with the intention of hurting, but just making a joke of something, and it lands badly.

Yeah. So a hala, I genuinely didn't mean to, but it, and it should be forgiven. Those are, in the main, the easy ones to forgive. The next class is what they call a hewa. Hewa is when you go overboard. So hewa includes addictions, because that's going overboard with yourself. 

[00:07:47] Sarah: Okay. 

[00:07:48] Jane: But hewa is also, the example I use is, um, you're dumped by some guy or some girl, and they tell you quite specifically and categorically [00:08:00] they do not wish to be in your life.

So what do you do? You drive past from time to time just to see if the light's on. Or you phone them up just to hear their voi- voice on the answer phone, or, it, that, that sort of behaviour. You know that what you're doing is absolutely not wanted, but you push it anyway, 'cause it doesn't really harm anybody, does it, if I drive past his house, you know?

That, it's that kind of thing. 

[00:08:31] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:08:32] Jane: That, those would be examples of hewa. And then the last one then is an ino, which is something that is deliberately done with the intention to hurt or harm the other person. 

[00:08:43] Sarah: Okay, so there's a specific category for those kinds of things. Yeah. Right. 

[00:08:47] Jane: It could be quite a small hurt, it could be a big hurt, but the, it's about the intention.

It is my intention to hurt or harm or wound you. And all of them should be forgiven, [00:09:00] because we're all human and we're all capable of bad behaviour. As my teacher often says, if somebody had threatened his kids and their lives were at risk, most people would do what it takes. Takes a very, very special kind of a person,

[00:09:15] Sarah: You do hear these stories, don't you, of these- Yeah

very special people who- Yeah ... find a way, the worst possible experiences and as you say, it's often somebody has been taken from them and yet they're able to see beyond that- Yeah ... and, and forgive the person, and the rest of us are sort of you know, how can you do that?

I don't un- understand, but- Yeah ... I guess it's, it's a way of them, you know, getting to, to peace with what's happened. 

[00:09:42] Jane: Absolutely. I mean, Malala she was a Pakistani teenager was shot in the face by the Taliban. 

Youngest Nobel, uh- 

[00:09:50] Sarah: Nobel 

Peace Prize, yeah

[00:09:52] Jane: Nobel Peace Prize winner, and she says that she had to forgive him as much for herself it was part of her ongoing [00:10:00] healing to forgive the guy who shot her. 

[00:10:03] Sarah: Yeah. Um, 

I guess that's sort of part of what makes me really interested in this area, is the fact that actually a lot of not forgiving someone, it impacts you, but it doesn't necessarily have any, any change to them.

So really we're holding on to something, thinking of it, it's a way of blaming them or it's a way of punishing them, but are we really punishing anyone but ourselves in doing that, by holding on to this anger and this resentment?

[00:10:38] Jane: The psychologists because my teacher in Hawaii actually, his PhD is on ho'oponopono and proving statistically proving an evidence-based study that it works. In his PhD, which he kindly let me read, um, he talks about...

The, the psychologists talk about [00:11:00] unforgiveness, and that's the state of not forgiving, and there's a whole body of psychology on unforgiveness. 

[00:11:08] Sarah: Right. Um, 

[00:11:09] Jane: and basically it acts like chronic stress in our body. So all the things that you can think of that chronic stress, uh, might lead to, so maybe skin eruptions, uh, can be gut problems, can be heart problems, um, lung problems.

I mean, there's all sorts of medical issues that can arise out of chronic stress, and unforgiveness, not forgiving, can act like chronic stress in the body. Oh, mental illness is another. And can, can lead to all manner of physical, mental, emotional dis-eases. 

[00:11:45] Sarah: Yeah, that's incredible, isn't it? So again, we think of it as a sort of psychological state, but actually it can have a really significant physical impact on us as well.

[00:11:56] Jane: Yeah. 

[00:11:57] Sarah: Wow. And so as we're [00:12:00] talking, I'm seeing, uh, how important it is that not only we identify where we are in a state where we... and it might, I guess it might be from something from childhood that we've been carrying a very long time. It's not necessarily someone's just, you know, cut us up at a junction on the road.

And as you said, it sounds like ho'oponopono gives you sort of those layers in order to be able to identify, well, this is how extreme or, that there may be different ways of approaching different things. But it's, it's understanding that those things happened, they are still having an impact on us, and then w- well, what can we do next?

[00:12:37] Jane: Yeah. Yeah, and that was my own experience. Um, I mean, I was, I was bullied quite badly at school. And part of it was exclusion. Nobody talks to you. You're treated like you don't exist. And if they take it far enough, they'll lie to you.

And I experienced that substantially, particularly between the age of about 7 and 11, but it, [00:13:00] it was a constant theme through- throughout my school years.

When I left school, I thought I'd left all that behind me. I didn't realise the consequences that the bullying had had on me. 

Um, and- 

[00:13:13] Sarah: Which often we don't when it's in childhood, do we? We don't know what we carry 

[00:13:18] Jane: Like, that was then. That- it's because I- I was a kid, we were at school and you've got all- Yeah

[00:13:22] Sarah: y- Easy to write off and just about, "Oh, they didn't know better," and all of this- Yeah ... kind of thing. But actually deep down, is that what you really think? Yeah, 

[00:13:29] Jane: yeah, exactly. And it wasn't until I was in my 40s and I was working for a management consultancy company. We went into a company, and the first two weeks were great.

They loved me, it was fabulous, but they didn't really want us there, and about week three a switch flipped and they took against me, and basically started to treat me in exactly the same way as the girls at school had treated me. 

[00:13:57] Sarah: Wow. 

[00:13:58] Jane: I ended up with burnout [00:14:00] and, um, clinical depression.

[00:14:01] Sarah: Wow, I'm sorry. 

[00:14:03] Jane: Going through that is what took me on a journey to find recovery methods, and Huna, the Hawaiian practices was absolutely key in my recovery, and ho'oponopono was key because I came to realise that, yeah, I can release the anger and the sadness and the old beliefs that I had about myself that I'd taken on as a result of being bullied, but if I didn't forgive the people who'd bullied me, both back as a kid and in this, uh, organisation where I'd experienced the bullying, then I was never gonna be able to move forward.

So ho'oponopono, Hawaiian approach to forgiveness, was huge in enabling me to regain a, a positive mental [00:15:00] state. 

[00:15:00] Sarah: Yeah. Amazing. And you obviously came at it as an adult who'd had an adult experience on a, in a corporate environment. 

[00:15:10] Jane: Yeah. 

[00:15:11] Sarah: Um, at what point did you realise this is actually sort of history repeating itself?

This is something That I think is related, or my reaction to it may have been related to something that had happened previously 

[00:15:27] Jane: I think the first thing... I, I mean, I realised pretty soon, it was like, "Whoa, this is like being at school again." But my initial reaction was, why is this happening?"

I couldn't understand, and I didn't- Yeah ... I hadn't done any personal development at that point, so I didn't understand that there might be a relationship between experiences from the past and what was happening in, in, in the present. So I didn't, I didn't join the dots in that way. 

[00:15:53] Sarah: Yeah. But did Ho'oponopono- Mm

help you to join those dots? 

[00:15:56] Jane: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because [00:16:00] at the time when it was happening, as I say, I hadn't, I hadn't come across Huna. I wasn't very far down the personal development route, and it didn't occur to me that I didn't realise that forgiveness might be useful.

Um- Mm ... that might clear the energy out. I wouldn't even use those words, 'cause I didn't believe that energy existed, and it wasn't until I was taught, uh, Ho'oponopono and I started to forg- I mean, I started with forgiving exes. You know- Right

that was, that was the starting point. Oh, forgive him, yeah, forgive him, forgive him, you know. Th- there was a lot of forgiving around that. Yeah ... because I thought that the depression that I was experiencing was related to never having been able to find a relationship that I wanted, and I thought that- I-

was the problem. That's what I thought- Yeah ... was the problem, so that's where I focussed my efforts and my forgiveness. And then gradually, as I began to piece things together, I thought, "No, the problem goes back to [00:17:00] being bullied at school." It's way older than what I assumed. I mean, My family, my dad was a church organist.

My mother was a devote, Anglo-Catholic. Up until the age of probably about 15, I went to church and, and all that. So I'd heard about forgiveness, and I knew forgiveness was a good thing from a, from a Christian perspective, but the Bible never told me how to do it.

Nobody could tell me how. 

[00:17:26] Sarah: Yes. I guess that- That's the problem ... I guess a lot of the, the faith, it's about asking for forgiveness as opposed- Yeah ... to being the person giving the forgiveness- Yeah ... if that makes sense. 

[00:17:36] Jane: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, it... I couldn't get it. It, it didn't compute in my thinking.

And it was only, as I say, as I started to explore Ho'oponopono- W- worked my way through forgiving the exes. And then put these pieces together and realised how significant the part was that being bullied as a child [00:18:00] had played in my development in things like outwardly people might well say I was confident, but inwardly I was not.

I was not confident at all. The, the outward confidence was a mask. I, I played it well- Yeah ... but it was a mask. And I had a lot of beliefs, very limiting beliefs about myself and, and who I was. And so much of it stemmed from the childhood experiences and my reactions to them. So when I started to work with ho'oponopono with the bullies from childhood and also the bullies from this, uh, management company 'cause arguably they, they should've known better, they were- Well, 

[00:18:47] Sarah: yes.

That is true. 

[00:18:50] Jane: But y- that's not how it- But I, I- ... not the way it goes ... guess, again, 

[00:18:52] Sarah: you, you, you- No, I guess ... sort of, that could have gone back to their childhood or could have gone back- Yeah ... to their experiences. Exactly. So, so that's where [00:19:00] you can tie yourself in a knot, isn't it? And, and have to pull it back to yourself.

How is this affecting me? But- How, how can I help me, rather than just trying to justify other people's behaviour. 

[00:19:11] Jane: Yeah. 

[00:19:12] Sarah: But it- Yeah ... it's interesting there you've touched on the fact that these experiences that you haven't released in, in whatever way they can alter your personality. 

[00:19:23] Jane: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And they can come back and bite you in the bum even when you think that you've let go of them. So I have a client who she was a, she was senior civil servant, and ended up in a situation where she had a boss who was basically a misogynistic bully. Now, I don't think that's too harsh in terms of how, uh, how I've heard her talk about her experiences.

And she left the organisation and decided to [00:20:00] set up her own business. And she was doing all right, but she wasn't doing as all right as she wanted to, and she kept finding that herself in circumstances, either with a client or a supplier, which somehow recreated her experience with this boss.

[00:20:22] Sarah: Oh. 

[00:20:22] Jane: So it kept, it was like little hooks. She'd moved out of the situation. Yes. 

[00:20:26] Sarah: T- 

[00:20:27] Jane: T- And that was why she came to me to work with me. And we did quite a bit of forgiveness work, and it, it totally transformed her ability to flourish in her own business and grow her own business. 

[00:20:44] Sarah: Yeah.

Fantastic. I guess there's, there's an element of empowerment in there as well by, by the sounds of it. Having that choice, being able to make the choice that, okay, this is not working, something's wrong, identifying what that is, and then being able [00:21:00] to, to choose to release it. Again, taking the power back.

It's not, it's- Yeah ... they had power over me in a certain way. Now I'm taking the power back and saying that's- 

[00:21:09] Jane: Absolutely 

[00:21:09] Sarah: ... no longer going to affect me. Yeah. That's beautiful. 

[00:21:13] Jane: Yeah. 

Yeah. And, and she's not the only one. Um, I mean, there's the... there's a, a number of, of clients who that's a, it's part of the pattern.

Yeah. Uh, the reason that they're not thriving in whatever s- situation they're in. Sometimes it's workplace, sometimes it's relationships, sometimes it's life. Um- Yeah ... but the reason that they're not thriving is because there is, there are patterns from the past that they think they've left behind because they've moved out of the, the environment or moved out of the situation, but there are still these hooks.

[00:21:50] Sarah: Yeah. And it 

[00:21:51] Jane: still, it still grabs them and holds them back. 

[00:21:54] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:21:54] Jane: Um, and re- I mean, release work, releasing emotions, as we talked about last time, is important. [00:22:00] But the forgiveness work is... it, it's often overlooked, and it's so important. 

[00:22:06] Sarah: And do you find that it's something that's sort of... it is helpful to have someone work through that process with you, in that, you know, we can do journalling, or we can do that sort of questioning ourselves or looking for patterns and things like that.

But do, are you finding with clients that you can see something that maybe they, they haven't been able to join the dots themselves, but having the technique of ho'oponopono or the, or the practice of, of Huna you can sort of notice things that consciously people aren't realising that those patterns are existing?

[00:22:43] Jane: Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, I, I regard that as part of my job as a coach is to help- Mm ... people understand their patterns and see yeah, join the dots. And it of- it, in general, it is easier if you've got somebody who knows what they're doing to, to guide you through and help you [00:23:00] and mirror back and reflect things as in, 

[00:23:03] Sarah: you 

[00:23:04] Jane: know, you just said this, and then you just said that, and what's the relationship between the two?

Or, observe things- Mm ... and make those observations. One thing I am finding interesting is that, Every- all my advertising, everything I talk about, I specialise in working with women. So I've had a, it's not a huge stream, but, and several Asian guys come to me of late, or at least talk to me, they haven't necessarily ended up working with, some haven't.

They've been working with ho'oponopono. They read... There's a book by a guy called Joe Vitale called Zero Limits. 

[00:23:41] Sarah: Okay. 

[00:23:43] Jane: It- Joe Vitale developed, uh, the Hawaiian forgiveness prayer, and it's probably when people talk about ho'oponopono, that's the thing they assume that we're all talking about. 

[00:23:59] Sarah: Okay. Not [00:24:00] necessarily 

[00:24:00] Jane: the case, but I'll come to that in a second.

[00:24:02] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:24:02] Jane: Um, so these guys, they've bought the book or listened to audio, whatever, but, and they've been working with it and it's really helped them. They've been doing it all by themselves, listening, watching, reading. And they've come to a point where they can't get it to work for them anymore.

They come across a block or, a something- Yeah ... often a limiting belief, but not necessarily. But they've come across as something that using the Hawaiian forgiveness prayer, using ho'oponopono can't help them with. So they Google ho'oponopono. Probably they Google ho'oponopono UK, and my name pops up, and so they contact me.

And part of it is because they're working on their own, and it is, it's hard. 

[00:24:56] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:24:56] Jane: Getting good basic forgiveness practice, fabulous, [00:25:00] easy. But when you, when you come up against it, when you're kind of, you know, you, you're delving really deep, it can be hard to do it on your own.

So part of it is 'cause they're doing it on their own. Part of it, I think, is that they don't necessarily have the background and the depth of understanding into what forgiveness is. Um, and part of it, and this sounds like I'm criticizing and I'm not, because I'm really grateful, I'm really, really grateful to, Joe Vitale and, Dr.

Hew Len for putting out, uh, the Hawaiian forgiveness prayer. But the way I teach it and the lineage that I've studied, forgiveness is both ways. So I forgive you in the process, and I have you forgive me. 

[00:25:45] Sarah: Ah, interesting. 

[00:25:47] Jane: Because I don't know but what- my behaviour in some way triggered, like the story of the guy with the, the, the school dinner lady guy.

[00:25:56] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:25:56] Jane: I don't know, but what something in my behaviour triggered [00:26:00] the behaviour of the other person that I felt wounded me. Because it's all done in your head, it's all your own creation anyway. 

[00:26:11] Sarah: Okay. So, so you're not having to invite the other person in to, in order to have that- Not- ... two way. 

[00:26:18] Jane: Not physically.

That is one version of ho'oponopono, is a physical conversation. 

[00:26:23] Sarah: Okay. 

[00:26:23] Jane: Um, but the version both the Hawaiian forgiveness prayer and the way I teach ho'oponopono it's a conversation in your head. 

[00:26:31] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:26:32] Jane: You at one level you make it up. Yes. Yeah. You can put it whatever way you want it, but the other, the other thing about it is that when we're doing that 

we're forgiving representations of ourselves even if, even if it's the, um... and forgive me, 'cause I know this can be distressing for some people. Even if it's the relative that abused you when you were a child,

Over time, your [00:27:00] memory of them and of the event has...

It, it's coloured by your experiences and your beliefs and, and it acquires layers. And when we put them on stage, in our heads, when we put them on stage and forgive them, we're dissolving the layers of our perception of how the story was. And it's not to say the abuse didn't happen.

Absolutely not. It's not to condone the, the abuse. Somebody who ab- you know, abuses should, should be punished. 

[00:27:33] Sarah: Mm. Uh, it's 

[00:27:34] Jane: not that.

[00:27:35] Sarah: But- But ag- again, I guess it's when you end up punishing yourself- Yeah ... for something you had no control over. 

[00:27:41] Jane: Exactly. Exactly. And shaming yourself, and all the other stuff that goes with it.

Society's quite happy to shame people who've been abused, but It's quite common with people who've been abused, they feel a deep shame about, you know, "How could I have let this happen?" Or, or you know, "I must have done [00:28:00] something." 

But the idea is that when we forgive the other person and have them forgive us for maybe just the fact that we were there- Right and it's one of the hardest aspects of this form of ho'oponopono because a lot of people say, "What, y- I did nothing. You can't... You know, that, that's putting it on me.

It, that's blaming me. That's doing all the things that you know, we shouldn't be doing to, to, to victims of abuse." It's not, but it's, for some people it's a really, really hard place to go. Difficult place to go. Yeah. 

[00:28:44] Sarah: I can imagine. 

[00:28:45] Jane: The Hawaiian forgiveness prayer doesn't go there. 

[00:28:48] Sarah: Right. 

[00:28:48] Jane: And having worked with victims of abuse, when they do it, without exception the response [00:29:00] is I wish I'd known this years ago.

I wish I, I wish I could've done this years ago." 

[00:29:03] Sarah: Yeah. So while it's uncomfortable, actually those things were stay, were, they were barriers- Yeah ... to just get, to getting past it, to being able to release it and, and move on with your life. 

[00:29:16] Jane: Yeah. 

[00:29:17] Sarah: Wow, that's so powerful and I can imagine if you've been through that situation with clients, it must be something that you...

I mean, you really have to be the right sort of person in order to lead someone through a session like that. 

[00:29:32] Jane: Yeah, I mean, it, it- That, that's 

[00:29:33] Sarah: not a YouTube video.

[00:29:37] Jane: No. No. No. It, it requires a lot of, a lot of compassion and, and being able to hold a space for the person. And it's, it's such important work. I mean, I... Right now the world needs forgiveness, at so many different levels. We need forgiveness. And it's, it is not easy. Yeah. [00:30:00] People the act of actually...

W- when you're ready, it's easy. Poof. 

[00:30:07] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:30:07] Jane: It's a moment. It's the build-up. 

[00:30:10] Sarah: Yeah. It, I guess again, it's getting to that point of where you can make that choice- Yeah ... of saying, "I'm, I'm ready and I'm able to- Yeah ... to move beyond all the barriers I've put in, in place of saying, well, no, in order to forgive I need, I need to condone or I need to..."

as we talked about at the start. 

[00:30:29] Jane: And- Yeah. It's a 10, 15-minute process, and it can be even quicker than that. 

[00:30:33] Sarah: Wow. 

[00:30:34] Jane: On- oh, yeah. Once the person is ready and knows in themselves that, "Yep, this is what I need. This is the right thing for me to do. This is the right thing for me. This is gonna change a lot of things for me."

Because bitterness is a very, very corrosive emotion. 

[00:30:52] Sarah: What does that process look like? Is it, is it through a sort of meditative state or some h- hypnotic state or- 

[00:30:58] Jane: No, not 

[00:31:00] particularly.

It's nice if it is. I mean, it's easier and more comfortable if it is. But it doesn't have to be. So the, from a Hawaiian perspective, there are three main ways of doing ho'oponopono. This is big picture, yeah? Yes. Three main ways of doing ho'oponopono. One is that you do it in your mind.

It's all done in your head. Whether you use the Joe Vitale approach, whether you use the approach that I teach, it's all done in here, all done in the head. 

[00:31:26] Sarah: So you would lead people through that. You would say- Yeah ... to them, "Think of this, and now this is happening," or- Yeah ... yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:31:34] Jane: Or I teach people how to do it for themselves.

[00:31:37] Sarah: Right. 

[00:31:38] Jane: Um, so they can guide themselves through. 

[00:31:40] Sarah: Yeah. Or they can- But there's a framework and- Yeah ... and sort of you work through a certain process. Yeah. 

[00:31:44] Jane: And I'll, I'll talk f- I'll talk to the process in a minute. So there's in your head, there's a conversation. Okay. And in Hawaii culturally, that form of ho'oponopono has always been part [00:32:00] of the Hawaiian culture.

But culturally still, and there are as many versions of it as probably there are Hawaiian families in the islands the there is a, if, if in a family there is, um, conflict going on, the, the head of the family or an elder in the family will get everybody involved in af- or affected by the conflict, you know, even if it's Jo doesn't do the washing up.

But whatever it is. Everybody sits down, and it's almost like talking stick. Everybody gets to have their say, and they say what they need to say, and everybody says what they need to say, and they keep talking until they're done. And- Wow ... the, and, and forgiveness is complete both ways. And if it takes 24 hours, it takes 24 hours.

[00:32:49] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:32:50] Jane: Because I 

[00:32:50] Sarah: can imagine the more people are talking, then the more things are coming up, and it just sort of can snowball. 

[00:32:56] Jane: Yeah. But everybody has to have [00:33:00] their say. Whether they want to say anything or not, they have to say something. You know oh, okay. Now- That's the kind of extreme end of in face-to-face.

But if I'd done something and I'd, I'd offended you or vice versa, we could have a one-to-one, uh, conversation about it. With a facilitator or just a one-to-one conversation, depending on how things went. So that's the second form, in-person conversation that leads to forgiveness.

And then the third form is a mix of the two. So, a friend of mine used to tell a story of, an experience that he had, and he did ho'oponopono with a lot of people in order to, um, release this experience. Didn't totally work, and then he had to go and have some face-to-face conversations with a few people to to finish the process.

So sometimes it's a mix.

So going back to the first one, which is the in the, in your head. The [00:34:00] way I teach it, the process is you imagine healing light flow through you. You imagine a stage, and it's your stage, it's your design, so it can, can be what- it can look like whatever you want the stage to look like. And then you invite the person or people that you want to forgive onto the stage.

Either in your mind or out loud, you say what you need to say. You have them say what they need to say so that you can say, "I forgive you. Please forgive me." And you can hear them say, "I forgive you, too." 

[00:34:41] Sarah: Right. And then you're done. And I can s- it sounds like is that a significant part of the process, being heard.

Being able to say those things you've never had a chance to say to that person. 

[00:34:51] Jane: Yeah. And because a lot of it's, an unconscious process. If you did it, if you did it all fully consciously, it would take forever. [00:35:00] Mm. Once you allow your conscious, rational, logical, cognitive brain to step out and go with your gut and trust what's coming up in the process, then it gets fast, because the unconscious mind works fast.

[00:35:14] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:35:15] Jane: And then it can be a very quick process. Yeah. But as you say, it's the getting the insights and the messages and the learnings both ways plays a huge part in getting the result. 

[00:35:27] Sarah: And is there an element of, of having to sort of forgive yourself as well as forgiving other people, or is that a different strand of the practice?

[00:35:38] Jane: You wouldn't put yourself on stage but when you put other people on stage, the process of having the conversation, h- you forgiving them and them forgiving you, very often what people experience is actually self-forgiveness as well as- Yeah ... forgiveness. 

[00:35:57] Sarah: That's what I wondered. That sounds incredible.

P- particularly [00:36:00] from that first strand is, is the fact that you're, you're having that conversation effectively with yourself. Yeah. So there's an element of self-forgiveness in there as well. Wow. 

[00:36:11] Jane: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:36:13] Sarah: So powerful. Amazing. The fact that there is that process there, that you can get that level of forgiveness for others, for yourself, whether that's, that's facilitated, whether that's something that you've learnt to do,

but all of the ways, I guess, get you to that end goal of release and, feeling better in yourself, improving your own wellbeing. 

[00:36:38] Jane: There's there's a lot written about forgiveness, uh, at an individual level.

There's not much written about forgiveness in organisations. And I think, personally, I believe that w- we could do with our organisations being a lot more forgiving.

And one of them is a chap called, uh, Manfred Kets de Vries. He's a [00:37:00] professor of leadership at INSEAD. He's... must be in his 80s now. But he has written about it, and one of the things, and I love what he says. Says you can't change the past, but you can heal it. And by healing it, you change the present and the future.

[00:37:21] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:37:22] Jane: Another, another piece that again doesn't, that doesn't get as explored as much is forgiveness around death and bereavement. A friend of mine told me a story. She'd left a job and she was trying to set up, uh, her own company, and she was... the ideas were just not coming through. The... she was just stuck. It just didn't- Yeah ... nothing. It was like wading in glue. Um, and she was working with a healer, and this healer said, "It all boils down to forgiveness.

Everything boils down to forgiveness." And a lot of healers, a lot of healers and spiritual teachers do believe this, it all boils down to forgiveness. [00:38:00] Make a list of everybody that you need to forgive. So she went off and made a list. And from nowhere came a sense that one of the people that she needed to forgive and it was important that she did, was her former best friend who, uh, when he was in his 30s, when they were both in their 30s, he died.

They would joke about seeing themselves in their 60s, 70s, 80s sitting down together and, laughing at the world. But of course he wasn't there to do that. Right. And she had to forgive him for leaving her.

[00:38:39] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:38:40] Jane: And that's, I mean, that's just one example. But quite often people are... they're angry at, at being left behind or angry that, you know, your loved one's gone or uh, you know- I mean, it's one- ... blaming them for anything ... it's one of the stages, 

[00:38:54] Sarah: isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, one of the stages of grief.

But I guess- Yeah ... it can be a stage you can get stuck in if [00:39:00] you're actually- 

[00:39:01] Jane: Oh, yeah ... 

[00:39:01] Sarah: you know, if, if that's significant. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:39:04] Jane: And also blaming p- particularly if, if there's a family dynamic around either asking too much of the family or not telling the family w- that they were dying. You know, all this, th- there's a whole raft of stuff wrapped up in there.

And forgiveness in, in bereavement is re- can be really, really helpful. And enabling a person who's dying to do forgiveness work on their way out can really help ease the dying process. 

[00:39:41] Sarah: Yes. That sounds like it could be a whole specialism in itself to use-

in bereavement and

in dying. Wow. I hadn't even, you know- ... considered that- 

[00:39:52] Jane: Why would you? 

[00:39:53] Sarah: From what you're saying Yes ... it makes total sense. And, and I could see how that could be really significant for some [00:40:00] people. And actually maybe from a bereavement perspective it could be something that's stopping people moving through that grieving process.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and again, that can impact your life for a long time. That can be a long-term thing. So anything that can facilitate the sort of, the moving through of emotions and working with, well, as you said, the, the energy of the time. .. It sounds like it's also possible then to work with where things have happened in past generations, so where people have discovered, you know, somebody a, a few generations back did terrible things or was involved in terrible things. I guess there's, there could be something in your DNA carrying that forward as sort of always being ashamed but not really knowing why.

If you can sort of release that of sort of, "I forgive you. That's not my, that's not my pain to bear," sort of thing. 

[00:40:58] Jane: Yeah. I guess, and th- there's a [00:41:00] couple of different ways at coming at it if you're doing the- Sort of conventional ho'oponopono process as, as we teach it in my lineage. You would put on the stage your ancestor, uh- Yeah

who had committed m- murder or violence or whatever. You'd actually, you would put them on the stage and you would forgive them. So that's one way of doing it. But we don't always know who they are. We don't necessarily know- Mm ... who we need to put on the stage. So you can kind of make some assumptions.

Okay. And put somebody, you know, and ha- and, and put somebody on the stage who represents, uh, the behaviour and the person who, who did the behaviours. But sometimes what, sometimes what... and it's not so much giving. So one of the things you get after war, and it's quite evident in Europe after the Second World War where you had a lot [00:42:00] of people who were migratory, destitute, starving.

There was, you know, in, in mainland Europe there w- th- there's some bad situations in the UK, but in mainland Europe there was some really horrific situations. And people really did what they needed to do in order to survive. 

And have carried it with them and, uh, transmitted it through their- Yeah

behaviours to their, uh, uh, and through the DNA. To the next 

[00:42:29] Sarah: generations. Yeah. To the next 

[00:42:30] Jane: generation and the generations after. Um, so what you can do, again, if you know the, who it was you can put them on the stage. But what I do when I'm facilitating, if I know that there is clearly generational baggage.

That's not to, undermine what people are carrying but, you know, th- this generational history. I'll talk specifically about it and forgiving the generations behind [00:43:00] that may have contributed to this particular behaviour. 

[00:43:04] Sarah: Yeah. And again, what I think is key there is the fact that you're not trying to justify what they did.

You're not gonna know that far back the real reasons why. So you can guess till the cows come home at, you know, trying to justify or trying to plaster it with reframing or plaster it with some sort of toxic positivity. But actually doing it through this lens of forgiveness.

Again, it's coming from a different energy, isn't it? 

[00:43:32] Jane: Yeah. Totally. A- 

[00:43:33] Sarah: and it sort of- What's coming to me is that it's like a, an act of cleansing almost. 

[00:43:39] Jane: I think that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. 

[00:43:43] Sarah: I just find it absolutely fascinating. What often comes across is some of these things seem quite obvious, but actually we've lost, um, the obvious, haven't we? Yeah. And we look to overcomplicate things, and we look to some sort of magical...

when I looked into [00:44:00] forgiveness on the internet, there was so many... search results of the 10 steps of this and the five steps of that and, you know, everyone seemed to have all these different frameworks. So I was really thrilled that we were able to have this conversation to go through something that, again, we talked last time about huna being an ancient tradition, and actually learning from something beyond clickbait, if you like. It is. This is actually, this is coming from somewhere, this is tried and tested and it, it works. 

[00:44:28] Jane: Yeah. 

[00:44:29] Sarah: So fascinating. I know you've got a retreat coming up, a huna retreat

in France, which sounds- Yeah ... very exciting. Would you like to let us know a little bit more about that? Because I guess... will this be part of it? 

[00:44:41] Jane: So, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just from a, a, the ho'oponopono perspective, so, one of the things we do as part of it is guide people through ho'oponopono, uh, an extended version.

And then at the, towards the end of the retreat, we teach people how to do it for themselves so that they can- 

[00:44:59] Sarah: [00:45:00] Beautiful 

[00:45:00] Jane: ... so they can use it, it's a five-day, uh, retreat. It's in a beautiful part of southern France. It's really for people who want to explore and deepen their spirituality. Ah. Particularly, from the perspective of energy, 'cause not all spiritual traditions talk about energy.

[00:45:22] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:45:22] Jane: Hunu talks a lot about energy. 

[00:45:25] Sarah: Right. 

[00:45:26] Jane: We talk a lot about energy healing. That spiritual connection, developing your own spirituality, your sense of purpose and identity. We release emotions, we release beliefs.

We do ho'oponopono to really clear out the system.

We do a lot of work with connecting with the elements and connecting with your higher self, which is, if you like, your connection with the divine. How do you work with the elements?

How, what can you do with them if you, just 'cause you understand the energy of the elements, what can you actually do with this stuff? Yeah. How does it help you manifest? How does it help you heal [00:46:00] yourself? How does it help you heal other people? And practices and principles.

And we teach dream interpretation. We work with clay and fire and other things for transformational purposes. Going to a sacred place to really connect and feel the difference in the energies. So I mean, it is, absolutely jam-packed five days, but- 

[00:46:23] Sarah: It 

sounds like a very, very special experience

Well, we'll pop a link in the show notes, um, if anybody wants to find out more about that. So thank you so much for today, Jane. There- it's been a packed episode. I hope everybody's enjoyed it and learnt something from it, but I, I really appreciate you coming and, and, uh, articulating it so clearly so that we can really understand the practice itself and the potential that it gives you, so thank you.

[00:46:52] Jane: Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. Thanks, Sarah.

 [00:47:00] Well, I don't know about you, but I came into that conversation thinking forgiveness was complicated, and I'm coming out of it thinking we've just been looking at it wrong all along.

[00:47:13] Sarah: Jane's clarity on what forgiveness actually is and crucially what it isn't feels like such an important starting point. Not condoning, not forgetting, not giving your power away. The opposite, in fact, taking it back. The research Jane mentioned on forgiveness acting like chronic stress in the body is a genuinely important consideration.

We think of it as an emotional state, something that only affects how we feel, but it turns out it can show up in our physical health too, in ways we might never connect to something we're still carrying from years ago.

Jane's own story was one I found really moving. The childhood [00:48:00] bullying she thought she'd left behind, only to have it show up again in her 40s in a completely different setting, and how ho'oponopono was central to her recovery. There's something really powerful about someone who's done the hardest version of this work themselves, and the idea that the process can be done entirely in your own mind, no difficult conversations required, no contact with the people who've hurt you.

It's quietly extraordinary. You imagine a stage, you say what needs to be said, you hear what you need to hear, and something shifts. Check out the show notes for links to things we've discussed in the episode, including Jane's small group huna retreat in southern France, running from the 31st of August to the 4th of September 2026.

Until next time, take care of yourselves, and remember, you can't change the past, but you absolutely can heal [00:49:00] it