Exploring Forest Bathing with Annie

Host Sarah Gorev is joined by photographer and nature lover Annie Johnston for a genuinely joyful chat about forest bathing - and fair warning, neither of them are experts. This is two people who love being outside talking about why it makes them feel so much better. And somehow they cover a lot of ground. 

In this episode you'll hear about: 

• Why our connection to nature is primeval - and what the digital age has quietly done to it 
• The Japanese practice of shinrin-yoku, why it was coined in the 1980s, and why it can be a lovely walk in the woods 
• Grounding - what it actually is, why Annie had been doing it her whole life before she found out it had a name, and why pigeon poo may occasionally be an obstacle
• The fascinating science of phytoncides - the chemicals trees release that can actually boost your immune system 
• Why trees communicate with and look after each other through their root systems (it sounds unlikely; it isn't) 
• How going outside for just ten minutes works as a change of state for your nervous system in a way even a cup of tea can't quite match 
• Forest schools, children seeing woods through fresh eyes, and what Sir David Attenborough has to do with any of it 
• The women's business walking group where nobody talked about business once - and why that was the whole point 

Plus a plant in the wrong place, some owl pellets, and a very good case for borrowing a dog! 

Whether you've got a forest on your doorstep, a balcony with a tomato plant, or just a park bench at lunchtime - this one's for you. 

Links mentioned in the episode:

Website – http://www.anniejohnstonphoto.com

Business Facebook – www.facebook.com/anniejohnstonphotography
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/anniejohnston
Instagram – www.instagram.com/anniejohnstonphotography

📖 The Healing Power of Trees by Olga Terebenina and Gary Evans - Forest Bathing Institute - https://tfb.institute/

National Trust - https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/discover/nature/trees-plants/a-beginners-guide-to-forest-bathing

Curious about EFT tapping? If you've been feeling stressed, overwhelmed, or just not quite yourself lately, it could be just the thing. Host Sarah Gorev offers EFT and energy sessions via Zoom, plus virtual EFT tapping card decks if you'd like to explore at your own pace - find everything at tapintoyou.co.uk. Come and say hello on Instagram too @sarahgorev

This podcast is here to inform and inspire curiosity, not to tell you what to do. Everything discussed reflects the personal experiences of our guests, and Sarah doesn't personally endorse any particular practice or approach. You're always in the driving seat — it's entirely your choice whether to explore further. Where guests offer the chance to try things for yourself, you'll find links below. And as always, nothing here is suggested as a substitute for personalised advice from your own healthcare professionals.

Thanks for listening.

Transcript

Exploring Forest Bathing with Annie

[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:07] Sarah: What if one of the most powerful things you could do for your wellbeing this week was so simple and so obvious that you've already talked yourself out of it? No kit, no app, no technique to master. Just you, outside, shoes optional. Welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I'm Sarah Gorev, and this week I'm joined by the wonderful Annie, photographer, nature lover, and someone who's essentially been forest bathing since she was 10 years old in Cumbria, long before it had a name.

[00:00:43] Fair warning, neither of us are experts. This is genuinely two people who love being outside, having a proper chat about why it makes us feel so much better. But we cover more ground than you might expect, from why trees talk to each other through their roots, to what owl pellets have to do with wellness,

[00:01:03] To the women's business walking group where no one talks about business once. There's also a plant in the wrong place that I think you'll enjoy.

[00:01:13] If you've been meaning to get outside more but somehow haven't quite managed it, Or love spending your time in the garden or outside, this one's for everyone. Let's get into it

[00:01:28] Hello, and welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I am absolutely thrilled to have Annie with me this week to talk about forest bathing.

[00:01:39] Thank you for joining us, Annie. 

[00:01:41] Annie: Oh, thank you, Sarah. 

[00:01:42] Sarah: Neither of us are experts, so this will be a fascinating chat for everyone. 

[00:01:48] Annie: Thank you so much, honestly. I, as you say, I'm, cannot even pronounce the word of, um, Japanese forest bathing, but it's a lovely walk in the woods, basically. And you've brought me here to talk about very personal way I sort of enjoy, uh, nature.

[00:02:07] I enjoy going out into the forests and having a walk and absorbing all that, and I love my gardening, and that helps my wellbeing. And it's something I've always enjoyed. But now it's so sweet that, um, it's like a label's been put on things. The, I think it's actually p- you know, the Japanese forest bathing was only officially recognised in the 1980s.

[00:02:29] But- 

[00:02:29] Sarah: Yes, that's what I read as well. Yeah. So is it's the shinrin-yoku, I think, is, is- Wow ... the closest I can get. I, you know- that's, I apologize for anyone who speaks Japanese out there. Um, I'm just going on the UK spelling that- Yeah ... that they've sort of translated it. But yes, I believe it's relatively new term- Yeah

[00:02:49] that was started in the '80s. 

[00:02:51] Annie: But don't you think being out in nature, this is primeval. This is like- Yes ... going back to our core of why, you know, civilization almost, or before, pre-civilization. But just being outside, being part of nature, appreciating, appreciating nature just resets your brain a little bit.

[00:03:08] I think it just really, um, sort of, I absorb it all and I really enjoy the whole atmosphere and the smells and the sounds and... This is a very personal take. Y- you know, everybody's different. I know that one. But now it's so lovely it's all been recognised, don't you think? Like- Yes ... even medically. 

[00:03:25] Sarah: Yes, definitely.

[00:03:27] And as you say, w- we'll come onto it, but, you know, there's, there's various research studies being done on the impact of forest bathing on- your physiology and your mental wellbeing. But actually, when you delve into it, the lot of you- of it, you think isn't that obvious?" 

[00:03:47] Annie: Yes. And you think, "Why the world?"

[00:03:48] It's just, it is a walk in the woods. It's just lovely, literally, which means a nice easy thing to do. 

[00:03:53] Sarah: Yeah. Like, like a- But you think, well, if it's so obvious that being in nature makes us feel better, then- Yeah ... why do we Have to 

[00:04:02] Annie: prescribe it. But do you not think that civilizational, you know, society, especially now in the digital age, we've lost a connection a little bit.

[00:04:09] You know- Yeah ... the cl- with connection. We're sitting in front of screens. Uh, we're talking to people online, which we're doing now, which is still lovely conversation, but we really have you know, parts of city areas and everything and, you know, they're trying to put the greenness back into it. They're trying to, um, really just put trees in there, just people appreciate what's out there.

[00:04:28] And you can get very isolated if you're in a tower block- Mm ... or bits and pieces. Just the stress to get out and everything. But you can really be disassociated to the point where you don't know where your food comes from. You don't get the daylight. You don't get the smells. And it's really sad. And it, I think now, they physically have to say, "Get out there, and do, you know, enjoy it all."

[00:04:49] It, and you don't have to do it. I'm no hiker. I'm, I'm... This is a very personal thing. I w- I was very, um, lucky to have been brought up in North Cumbria, very on the, uh- Oh ... Saltwick Coast. Small holding middle of nowhere, lots of very useless animals running around that never made it- ... to the freezer. But we used to play in the woods, and it, it was just joyous, and it was just what you did.

[00:05:10] And I, like my garden, I realised I've just been thinking about this. I made a garden in the woods, and it's hilarious. We had a big garden, but I had my garden in the woods, and I used to do, you know- Oh, 

[00:05:18] Sarah: that's so lovely- Yeah ... as a child. And I 

[00:05:20] Annie: used 

[00:05:20] Sarah: to 

[00:05:20] Annie: like pinch plants and put them in and everything, and they used to die in bits and pieces, but it was just such good fun, obviously with my sister and friends, you know.

[00:05:27] But this, we were only about, like, you know, 10. You would never let people, kids walk around. Your my mum wouldn't know where we are, were for two hours. But it was- Yeah ... but the woods was only 100 yards away, but it was really idyllic and a nice thing to have that connection, and sit there and listen to the birds and realise what's happening around you, and being aware.

[00:05:46] So I was very lucky to have that situation. I really enjoyed being outside. And then- Yeah ... we used to do lots of lovely, uh, walks, the back fields, which is none of our fields. But so it wasn't as if I'm from Cumbria, and I was, you know, trying to get up Scafell and do the, um, amazing hill climbing.

[00:06:05] It was just being outside and- Yeah ... having the walks and talks with our family, especially my lovely stepfather. He would just go out, and we'd have a wander, like a good old hour. You know, as like a kid you know, a child of 10 years old going out for an hour, and they're freezing, absolutely freezing, at times.

[00:06:22] You know. Horizontal rain we used to call it. But then we learned the-- we also have good chats, and I learned the art of conversation, and I learned how to talk with people. We'd talk about, there's a barn there, and they had a barn owl, and I used to pick up the pellets. You know, a barn owl regurgitates- Yeah

[00:06:39] the, what's left of a mouse. So I would just, like, pick those up, pop them in my pocket, and then go and put them in water and dissolve them all and find the little jawbones and just- 

[00:06:46] Sarah: Oh, wow. 

[00:06:47] That appreciation 

[00:06:48] of nature is just-

[00:06:50] absolutely beautiful.

[00:06:51] Annie: There wasn't much else to do in Cumbria. We're very isolated. 

[00:06:54] Sarah: Your experience with forest bathing was right back from childhood and, before it even had the label forest bathing. 

[00:07:03] Annie: Yeah. We used to have, you know, we'd sit in the brightest part of the forest, I remember my sister, and the, the sun would come through.

[00:07:09] We'd make a little garden or we'd have little dens and things, and we're just all chattering along and with the kids down from down the road, and it was just really nice. Obviously, we had scraps and fell out as well, but just being outside and making your own decisions and doing your own things and creating things.

[00:07:23] And I s- just still go back to that. Now I have a lovely, it's not a huge garden, but I enjoy that. And just to get out, I go to Cumbria a lot, and just to have the walk in the back fields, a walk and a talk, just precious. Absolutely precious. And now it's just, you know, not... And it's quite sad that not everybody can do it, but it- people who can do it don't do it as well.

[00:07:45] I think that's why they're trying to elevate awareness and, you know. And it is r- it- people are really are aware now of the benefits of wellbeing and getting outside, but people don't always practice it, do they? They sort of- No ... It's a very simple way because doctors prescribe, uh, especially in Japan, forest bathing, which means just get yourself out there, go and immerse yourself.

[00:08:07] Just keep walking. Think about something else. But- And not, you know, obviously I'm not saying don't take antidepressants or anything. So some- but sometimes it goes along with medical intervention as well. Mm. Just, you know, just having that time. And, um, I think it's, I saw the National Trust, they have forest bathing courses.

[00:08:25] So you can actually go and prescribe yourself and pay to go for a walk in the woods. But- Yeah ... people do it. It's just so lovely, and it's, you know, it's not a competition and it's not really flinging yourself through there and seeing how many birds you can... Uh, you know, people do the competitive bird watching.

[00:08:43] How many birds do you see? It's just immersing yourself in the vibes and I don't, um, listen to music or anything when I'm walking around, which you can obviously, but it's the smells and the, you know, the sounds of the nature and the birds and just, it's very difficult sometimes, very, um, rare to not hear anything as well sometimes.

[00:09:04] Mm. You know, like, in modern life there's always music happening. But when I'm gardening or something, I don't put the radio on. I just listen to what's around me. We're in quite suburbia, so we do hear kids playing. But you hear the pigeons scrapping, and you hear birds, and then you hear the cats and then you can smell the grass, and it's just joyous.

[00:09:21] I, and it ma- it does put me in a, I think it's called a state of flow. Yes. You know, when you s- don't think about anything else apart from what you're doing. That's why I say I enjoy the gardening, just planting things and digging. But that state of flow is when you are not pressured by anything else apart from the task in hand.

[00:09:37] noone: Yeah. It's 

[00:09:37] Annie: just, uh, and that's a really creative state to be in as well, and I get a lot of lovely ideas for my, uh, photography and for my, just through the light and through... Just things come in from your back of your brain, for want of a better word, because there's nothing else stopping it come through.

[00:09:54] It's- 

[00:09:54] Sarah: Yes. You're giving it 

[00:09:55] space, aren't you? Yeah. To these ideas to come in and- 

[00:09:59] Annie: Yeah. Yeah. I find it really cathartic, and I do realise to the point I've got a little notebook in my conservatory that if I, like, I'm digging and gardening or doing something, and I, I like doing little personal projects, and if I think of something I'll write it down in a notebook 'cause it'll go in a minute.

[00:10:15] But I've got some really lovely ideas that I don't obviously absorb the idea from a different point, but then that mindfulness, being outside and lack of, uh, intervention from the modern life, whatever mean, that means, that enables these things to come through, I find. So it's- Yeah. 

[00:10:33] Sarah: Well, in fact, I think, I think one of the reasons why it became popular in the '80s in, in Japan or the, the, The name for it was coined was, I believe it was in response to that suddenly, you know, the economic growth- causing so much- Oh, yeah. Because of the Industrialisation ... stress in Japan. All of this technology, all the fast, sudden fast pace- Yeah ... of life. And it was, it looking almost for an antidote to that. 

[00:11:01] Annie: Yeah. So it- That really made sense for the '80s. Industrialisation, people losing the connection with nature again.

[00:11:06] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. So, so that sort of, as you say, the mindfulness the stepping back, back into nature- Mm ... it's just such a, a great opportunity for your body to calm down, for your mind to calm down, and that can bring in, then give it space for creativity and for, and I believe it brings down your blood pressure and- Yeah

[00:11:28] your breathing, and, you know, it can have such a massive impact on your wellbeing. 

[00:11:33] Annie: Yeah. Yeah. So- I definitely, I think I'm accused of, I'm quite a positive person. I'm accused of having rose-tinted glasses. I think that's definitely my attitude. But everybody needs a bit of help. You can't be- Mm ... so happy, happy all the time.

[00:11:46] And sometimes, you know, lots of things happen. I just need to get out for a walk. I just need to go out and get some space in my head and get some space around me. And then a lot of people through COVID, when they got the dogs because it, they needed to get out, but they, people would just, and they'd need an excuse to get out, which I think is a bit sad.

[00:12:03] But they, you know, a lot of dogs were bought and a lot of, um, expensive dogs were bought, but I'm always like, you know, get a rescue and all of this. But a lot of people- Yeah ... got the dogs so they could go out and it avoids, avoid people maybe, but just go out and just be by themselves or be with the dog and be outside with nature and release a little bit of that stress and try and find time for themselves really.

[00:12:26] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:12:28] Sarah: Interesting that you were saying about - being quiet, so not necessarily having music on or s- or something like that. And I think they do recommend that it is in silence. Ev- even if you go for a walk through the woods or through the forest with somebody- just to be quiet so that you can get yourself into that mindful state- Yeah ... of being aware with all senses- Yeah ... of what's going on around you. 

[00:12:52] Annie: Well, we used to do the walk, so when I was growing up, but then you used to have to be quiet 'cause then you didn't wanna scare the wildlife. You know what I mean?

[00:12:57] Yeah. So that was part of it. Nice. So we'd have a nice little chat, but then you get next to the woods and there'd be, you know, the barn owls would be sleeping through the day and, you know, and then so it'd just be like sh- just, you know, something's out there. Unfortunately, there's not as ma- much, um, wildlife around as there was all those years ago.

[00:13:12] But then that, to be quiet, to teach your child to be quiet for a while, and to h- have a conversation, and a two-way conversation, nothing deep or anything, but to listen. It... That's, that was, like, such a therapy and it was like, um... But I didn't know it was, I just... And then it wasn't till I got older and I went to, you know, I went to university and I was in the city and everything, and I didn't realise that everybody didn't have that, yes. And people didn't know what to do on a walk. You know, not, not what to do. E- everybody can do anything they fancy, but just have that space and the respect for what's around you and who's around you and it's like, it's not a competition, that you don't have to do this, you don't have to talk every second that you're out there.

[00:13:52] But- Yes ... it's just, I, I r- you know, I think it's called retrofitting it. You know, people now have done all these things, but now they've got labels and everything. 

[00:13:59] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. And I, I think we're more conscious of them, aren't they? Aren't we? Mm. When, maybe when we've lost things- Yeah ... we're more conscious of.

[00:14:07] Yeah. So as you say, when you're in the city then you can become conscious of the fact that you enjoyed being- Yeah ... in those green spaces- And seek it out ... connecting with nature. I think 

[00:14:17] Annie: more, um, planning is happening now, more, uh, green spaces are hopefully being preserved and created and, you know, it, it, it's good.

[00:14:25] And another, another thing I was thinking about as well, it's, uh, putting a label on something is grounding. Um- Yes ... so basically that is something I do all the time, but now it has a name. It's basically going out in your garden with your bare feet, just having a wander on the grass or, you know, with no shoes on.

[00:14:42] And now I'm thinking, "Well, what else would you do?" You know, I always go out and I, even before this chat, I thought, "Oh, well, I'll have a little wander around the garden." I realise, and it was wet, but I still took my shoes off because- Mm ... it's nice. I- it's a nice thing. You have to avoid the pigeon poo, but, you know, it's quite- It's c- it's still lovely.

[00:14:59] I don't... It is that feeling. It's literally being connected and- Yeah ... your body's feeling it and touching it, and there's so many ways now, I think, that we've been pulled back from it. And I think it's going full circle, but this w- I, I didn't realise it. I was, this, this is only about last year that I heard the word grounding, and a lovely per- person I know, she said, "Oh, we do grounding together."

[00:15:21] And I was thinking, "Oh, wow, that sounds..." She goes, "Yeah, we go out in the wild, you know, in the woods or in the garden. We just, you know, take our shoes off." I was like, that's a thing." Yeah. Not to be condescending, but it's just, yeah, it's so lovely that, that people have to be told to do something re- not told, but you know, have to be made aware that is a nice thing to do.

[00:15:40] Sarah: I do find that really interesting that we've sort of got to a point where we've sort of... I don't know whether it's almost it's too easy- And therefore we're like, "Well, why... How would that work if it's something relatively easy?" Yeah. Everything has to be so complicated. Mm. Or, or whether there's the time thing, and if we find it really easy to put so many excuses in place to say, "Well, you know, h-how can I go out into the garden?

[00:16:07] It's too cold. It's too wet." Yeah, yeah. "It's too..." You know, or, "I haven't got the right,"

[00:16:12] Annie: I think it's, it's, um, a change of state, uh, basically. Mm. That's why people at the end of the day, you have a, a little drink because that's like you've finished your work, so you have this, and it's like clicks the brain, and now I'm resting.

[00:16:23] So that's like been proven. So if you have a alcoholic drink or you have, like, a cup of tea or something like that, it's change ... A certain time, that's change of stra- state of mind. Whereas if you go outside even for 10 minutes and you're walking around and outside and you're getting rained on and you've got bare feet, that clicks your mind.

[00:16:39] Yes. It's a change of state, which sort of helps you realise that, you know, maybe it was too intense what you were doing before. If you're in front of the screen, I, um, I, you know, I love what I do, but I spend a lot of time editing in front of screens. But I have to get out. I, I, I go out every hour, just wander out and go and pull a weed up.

[00:16:56] Oh, there's no such thing as weeds, just a flower, a plant in the wrong place. But, you know. But, you 

[00:17:01] Sarah: know. Oh, I love that. I love that reframe. A plant in the wrong place. Don't we all feel like that sometimes? According to you as 

[00:17:07] Annie: well. Accor- according to your perception you know. Yes. But just having that, if I'm finding I'm working and it's a bit intense and I'm not getting any answers- Yeah

[00:17:15] you know, people say, "Oh, stand back." But it's just a way of standing back. That physically makes me feel different. And- 

[00:17:21] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah . 

[00:17:21] Annie: And there's a something said about the microbes.

[00:17:23] If you have soil under your skin, it really triggers something inside your body because the microbes in it

[00:17:29] Sarah: something chemically there, isn't there?

[00:17:31] Yeah. About the smells that are released- that- Mm ... sensory touch- 

[00:17:36] Annie: Yeah, definitely 

[00:17:37] Sarah: of getting your hands in the soil. 

[00:17:39] Annie: This is why I love 

[00:17:40] forest schools for children. Mm. Because I realise that so many kids, well, primeval, you weren't sitting in a, on a, with a desk in a, you know, in rows for most, you know, education times.

[00:17:51] You were outside. You were doing things. And people's, you know, kids' state of mind and their flow, they're more inquisitive and, you know, the, at the school here, my children, they enjoyed. They had like a fire pit. You know, they're only seven and they're sitting around a fire pit, and I was like, you know, health and safety alarms going off, but it was great because I just did forest school for an afternoon, and my son absolutely loved it.

[00:18:11] It really did. And just, you know, you weren't ... They weren't doing maths while counting, you know, how many bugs you could find or how many pebbles, and they were reading things on the labels for the seeds. But being outside and doing something instead of somebody, you know, obviously education's amazing. You need it.

[00:18:29] But then there's almost to be outside and, and it just triggered something and he was more relaxed with it. He just loved his Wednesday afternoons. 

[00:18:36] Sarah: Yeah. I find that quite interesting. So, so you and I are based in the UK, obviously. So for, for people that are elsewhere, forest schools have sort of grown up since the '90s sort of time.

[00:18:48] The, the- there's more and more of them around, and it's quite interesting because if you look into a lot of forest schools, they talk about the activities being so, so lovely connecting with nature- Mm ... and as you say, that mixture of sort of education and nature. Yeah. But I think there is an element there that you've touched on that's really important.

[00:19:07] It's just being in that environment- 

[00:19:10] Yeah, yeah ... 

[00:19:10] is calming and is more- Mm ... sort of relaxing. Mm. Although they could be, you know, climbing something or, or- Yeah, yeah ... whatever. So they can have a, a physical experience as well, but I think it's that sort of parasympathetic- 

[00:19:24] ... 

[00:19:24] Sarah: Response, isn't it- It gives-

[00:19:25] that gives them that, that is that crea- creativity that's coming in- Yeah, yeah ... and that ability- It's nice free mind ... to relax- Yeah ... and to take a breath- Yeah ... and to, yeah. 

[00:19:35] Annie: And, um, all weathers. Absolutely.

[00:19:37] Sarah: The 

[00:19:37] Annie: nurseries

[00:19:38] those three-year-olds. You'd have to take a mac, and no matter what the weather, they said there's no way we'd admit they are going outside. It could be like- Lovely. Let's go 

[00:19:47] Sarah: jump in the puddles in wellies and- Yeah, yeah ... and go through the mud and, yeah. 

[00:19:52] Annie: Yeah, yeah. But there's always usually, you know, they're not just, like, screaming around.

[00:19:55] There's always a little bit of a purpose to it. They're building something- Yes ... or making something or just going through. But just ins- you know, there's enough of time in education where they're sitting behind a desk or looking at a screen now. You, you know what I mean? So- Mm ... it's I think that's a really positive thing as well.

[00:20:09] And that only- Yeah ... came in, well, my s- you know, that, that's only been going round here for about the last 15 years, so. Yes, yeah. It's, it just... 'cause that, you know, education, there's so many different ways you can help a child and educate a child, and it's tapping into what works for them sometimes, you know.

[00:20:24] Some people just love being in front of the screen, but other... I personally would have b- loved being outside learning, but I never had that opportunity. It was never a thing when I was growing up, yeah, 

[00:20:34] Sarah: yeah. Yeah, I, I do find it interesting because, um, obviously we used to go on forest walks and things with the kids when they were young, and they absolutely loved it.

[00:20:44] And, um, and I don't know why, but I always sort of thought, "Oh, well, what... You know, where's the educational... sometimes where's the education in this?" And I'd have them sort of close their eyes and, and say to them, you know, "What can you hear? What can you smell? What sensation on your skin?" You know, all of these kinds of things.

[00:21:03] And sort of said, like, "Remember this, so when you're doing your creative writing and things like that, then, you know, maybe you could set a story in a wood, and then you'd be able to describe it," and that kind of thing. But it was all sort of that consciously, or being aware of certain things.

[00:21:19] And then, um, I was a governor at a, a local primary school, and we went on a school trip into a forest, and a lot of the children had never been out of the town. 

[00:21:30] Annie: Yeah, it's really 

[00:21:31] Sarah: s- it's- And it was- ... it's prime, 

[00:21:32] Annie: I think ... fascinating 

[00:21:33] Sarah: for me because I thought that those were the things that they were going to try and that, that they would notice.

[00:21:39] So, you know, the, the colours maybe or, or things like that. 

[00:21:43] Annie: Wildlife or whatever's around. Yeah, 

[00:21:45] Sarah: exactly, or things that as an adult we maybe zone in on. And actually it was really fascinating for me. So they were, they were noticing the way... And you would, you would connect with this c- because of the light, uh- Yeah

[00:22:01] you appreciating light. I do get into that one. But how sunlight would come through different leaves. 

[00:22:07] Annie: Oh, wow. 

[00:22:08] Sarah: And how fast a squirrel would run up a tree versus a different types of birds- Yeah ... flying around, or how firm the ground is if it has moss on it versus if it's- And some roots on 

[00:22:22] Annie: It's just precious.

[00:22:22] That's so good 

[00:22:23] Sarah: ... those sorts of things. And it really brought back that sort of, that magic and that curiosity 

[00:22:29] Annie: The wonder. The wonder of it ... 

[00:22:31] Sarah: the wonder of the natural world that through a child's eyes I just thought was so, so beautiful. And- And we can miss that ... 

[00:22:39] Annie: h- absolutely precious, and how apt, um, Sir David Attenborough's 100th was it, uh- Yes.

[00:22:45] Sarah: It was this- Yeah ... day last week. 

[00:22:46] Annie: Yes. Yeah. On the 8th. And he has always wanted to ... He, he would got into this, 'cause he al- and he said the reason he was always done this, he always has the perception and curiosity of a child. He never lost it. And so you get to a certain point, uh, your teens and everything, and everything a little bit shuts down.

[00:23:03] Well, it has to. You've gotta, you know, be an adult and get on with things. But that sense of wonder, and that's what he wanted to bring to everybody. And he just was so good, and he said he would always gravitate to a child that was in the room with him, and then he would ask them questions, and they would ask back.

[00:23:17] So he just wanted to keep the wonder and keep his curiosity going. And I think it was rare for him, he said, because he knew lots of people had lost it, including lots of his family members and things. But he said he always retained that. Mm. And he just wanted to share it with everybody. And I remember now, it's just, uh, when I was at primary school, I won a drawing competition, and then I got a book token, and that was the very first b- uh, book I bought, was Life on Earth.

[00:23:41] And that was the first- Oh, wow ... one he ... And that was just ... Nobody told me that. I just knew that it's, it was a lovely thing. It'd been on TV, and that's my first book. But he just wanted to share his love of nature and everything,

[00:23:53] Sarah: and he really does pass on that passion for it, doesn't he? And-

[00:23:56] Annie: but that's why it gives you hope that people do recognise now how precious it is. And he was saying about how much- Mm

[00:24:01] of the natural world has been lost and, don't get me started about fossil fuels and things, but you know, that pe- there is a little bit of a turning point, 'cause there has to be, I think, to just keep, um, the world in one piece. You know, I've, I've jumped onto walking, you know, from a conversation saying how great it is to walk through a forest, but then you've gotta keep the forest.

[00:24:20] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You've gotta keep the forest. And also, you know, a lot of people are now a long way from a forest. Yeah. So you, as you alluded to earlier, that it's finding those green spaces. Mm. So it might not be, you know, this beautiful, ancient forest- 

[00:24:36] Annie: Oh, yeah 

[00:24:36] Sarah: ... of oaks. Yeah. Um, you can still get huge benefit of finding- 

[00:24:40] Annie: Oh, yeah

[00:24:40] Sarah: Other spaces. In fact, I think I was reading about in Finland they've done ... I think it was in Finland. They'd done, Again, some research had had found that people spending time in a city park were calmer and more relaxed than people who were in a city centre. And a- and again, it's sort of that, "Oh, yeah.

[00:24:59] Well, that's obvious." But then surely it should be promoted more people actually have time in their lunchtime or whatever or, or- Yeah, just people- ... prioritize it- 

[00:25:09] Annie: Yeah. Yeah 

[00:25:09] Sarah: ... as a reset, as a sort of calming-

[00:25:13] Annie: yeah ... 

[00:25:13] people 

[00:25:13] just sitting there on the benches having their sandwiches or on their little Tupperware boxes, but at least they're outside, you know?

[00:25:18] So- Yes. Yeah ... I have to, um, work in the basically the communications department in the NHS sometimes. I photograph doctors and, uh, consultants there for their websites. But, uh, one of the places we use, the ... It's next to an open space, and you can ... You know, these are all lovely, amazing people working in the NHS, and they're inside all the time, you know, doing amazing jobs and on screens and working in stressful situations.

[00:25:42] And then you can see through, there's waves of everybody come to sit outside. They have a really good place there for everybody to sit outside for their... You can see people, like we ... It's all windows and we're ... I'm just doing my photography, but you can see people just sitting on the bench going like that.

[00:25:56] And bless their hearts, maybe that's the only half hour they've got outside for eight hours. 

[00:26:00] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:26:00] Annie: And I can see, and when I work there occasionally you can see the same people in the same spots, and they come out and just do the... But you can see physically going just to being outside, just to...

[00:26:09] And that would reset them. Have a little bit of lunch. Get some fresh air. 'Cause the word fresh air is a real- you know, it's high oxygen and it, you know, it's i- you do need better oxygen, not the, uh, air that's sometimes filtered and taken around so many departments and office spaces. It, it triggers your brain.

[00:26:26] It lifts you, I think so. 

[00:26:28] Sarah: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And I mentioned when, when you first, uh, came on, uh, the beautiful peace lily behind you. But again- Oh, yeah ... it's like in- what even inside our houses- Oh, yeah ... it's not the s- again, we're not comparing it to being in a forest, but it has a benefit to you of having- House-

[00:26:46] those green- Yeah, yeah ... you know, the houseplants around you. Yeah. Um- 

[00:26:50] Annie: Um, they, um ... I like, strange enough, I watch Gardener's World. Really weird that, isn't it? All of which, to the, uh, eye roll of all my family, but, um, there's the, basically the, uh, houseplant situation now, th- they've just exploded. It used to be 1970s you used to have the spider plant coming down and, but that vibe now, having beautiful houseplants around you, that has just exploded. There's just whole sh- they're gonna be in Chelsea. There's, you know, the whole exhibition's about houseplants and interior plants and how it can help you mentally. Oh, fantastic. Even if you've just like, um, a balcony. It, you know- Yes

[00:27:22] you can have a little ... I, I'm very fortunate. I've got, not a huge garden, but I've got a nicely, nice sized garden. But if you do even got a balcony, you can grow tomatoes. You, the smell of a tomato plant is just lush. And so, you know, i- if you- Care and, uh, look out and watch something grow, that helps your mental health even, you know?

[00:27:41] Yes. Yeah. 'Cause it's creative, 'cause you, you know, plant a few flowers and you know when they're gonna hopefully bloom. And I find guide the, gardening is quite, uh, you have to manage your expectations. It's quite the, you know- Yes ... things don't always work out, so you gotta make sure, and you gotta uh, basically, um, find new plans to have things work and, or things don't work.

[00:28:01] But even on a balcony, I, you know, you can bring together some lovely, lovely events and some joyful flowers and smells and things. And there's, in the Chelsea they do have balcony, um, areas now. They're, um- Oh, do 

[00:28:14] Sarah: they? 

[00:28:15] Annie: Yeah. There's basically, they have, like, four foot by three foot, and then they would s- suggest what you would put in there.

[00:28:21] But how lovely is that? It's not, it's not- Yeah ... judging anybody. It's just 

[00:28:24] Sarah: so uplifting, isn't it, to have the beauty of nature- It's connecting

[00:28:28] i- in your environment, where, whatever type of environment that, that might be. Have you been to Chelsea? Yeah. I've never been. No, I haven't been. So we're talking about the Chelsea Flower Show. 

[00:28:37] Annie: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I've been to Chelsea. Actually, we should go, 

[00:28:39] Sarah: Well, we will definitely have to go to the Chelsea Flower Show at some point together.

[00:28:43] I'm, I'm 100% up for that. 

[00:28:46] Yeah. But when 

[00:28:46] you were coming onto your garden as well it was making me think how much we appreciated having a garden during lockdown, for example. Oh, yeah. It became a real sort of multifunctional space. We were quite lucky. We'd put in, um, a vegetable patch pret- the year before- Well done

[00:29:04] um, lockdown. So it was, that was really nice as well, you know, planting up the vegetables with- Yeah ... again, with the boys. Yeah. Um, was really lovely. So then obviously you've got the flowers that are very uplifting to watch, and then all the- Yeah ... insects- Yeah ... um, as well. We had the badminton was going and it- Yeah

[00:29:21] again, it would always- Absolutely ... have to be barefoot and, and, you know, just, just going for it. And it was just, it was that appreciation of- Mm ... okay, we're in, but we can be out. Yeah. And, and again, I, I realise not everyone has that luxury, but if you do have that luxury, sort of making the f- full use of it- 

[00:29:40] Annie: Oh, I think it 

[00:29:40] should be mandatory for a little, have a little bit of an outside, you know, if you can. For like houses, and some houses are built and everything and the garden is just like a six-by-six. But even that you can do something with, but- Yes ... it, it's just ... And now we, I even know this, where we are in a, in a housing estate, they don't build h- uh, houses with this larger garden anymore.

[00:30:00] House- 

[00:30:01] Sarah: No. They're small. Yeah. Even really big houses, they've tiny gardens, don't they? Yeah, even the bigger houses. Obviously 

[00:30:05] Annie: the footprint is where they make the money, but what goes first is the spaces outside, which I think it should be- Yeah ... the other way around really sometimes. But then people want so many bedrooms and bits and pieces, but they're really, where the other houses have been built here, the half, the gardening allowance has been halved.

[00:30:20] So the priority's been lost a bit, and that's obviously- Mm ... financial. But I, I think- Yeah ... David Attenborough and everybody, they know what they're talking about, and people are aware of it now, so.

[00:30:30] Sarah: Yeah. I think if people see the benefit to their wellbeing, as you've- Mm. Yeah ... said, then, the ... It's, we're not in Scandinavia, for example, where it is- No ... it is, well respected that you, you need ac- I think it's even built into their- They're very aware, because they don't have a lot

[00:30:47] sort of societies. They, they need access to nature. Yeah. Um, and they need to make that as easy as possible for people. I think even in the UK so we're in a town, you know, there are parks, there are woods- ... that, you know, even if there are- a, a short bus journey or a, you know, a, a short walk away.

[00:31:06] That there is access to nature if you know to look for it. 

[00:31:10] Annie: Yeah, and it's not always the ... This is why you're saying about people doing courses and being, uh, wellness, having packages of things that are quite obvious. Sometimes people have to be pushed into that one as well. You know, people just- Mm ... not pill popping.

[00:31:23] 'Cause I, I think people need medication, um, sometimes. But it's, it should go alongside it. It should be, uh- Yes ... you know- 

[00:31:30] Sarah: It's complementary, 

[00:31:31] isn't it? 

[00:31:31] Annie: Complementary, that's it. Yeah, yeah. So. 

[00:31:33] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:31:33] In fact, With doing EFT I went to the Complementary Medical Association conference last year- Oh, right

[00:31:40] um, because I'm a member. And I actually saw a talk by, um ... In fact, I've got the book here. Oh, 

[00:31:45] Annie: yeah. By 

[00:31:46] Sarah: Olga and, um, Gary Evans, who started the,

[00:31:49] The Forest Bathing Institute, and they- they've done this wonderful book that I highly recommend.

[00:31:55] Um- Oh, good ... it's full of, full of interesting information- Yeah ... about forest bathing. It is- Okay ... it is, it's all about that sort of maintaining our wellness- 

[00:32:03] ... 

[00:32:03] Improving our wellness where we can ourselves, and then, you know, if something comes about that- that is a chronic- 

[00:32:11] ... 

[00:32:11] Sarah: Illness, a chronic situation- Yeah

[00:32:14] then, you know, the, the medical teams can of course, Yeah ... help with that. Yeah. But the, there's a way that they can work together. Yeah. 

[00:32:22] Annie: Oh, yes, definitely. And somet- what works for some person doesn't work for another person. You know what I mean? Right. So it, it could be you want, you know, you need to go for a swim or something like that, that sort of chills you out or whatever.

[00:32:32] But, or that ... Just with me, I like just being outside and digging and- Mm ... walking and lo- But then ... And also I think if you look after yourself, that- you know, you've got strength to look after other people. Yes. And that, and that really helps, um, you know, put other people that maybe can't get outside or just your attitude is better.

[00:32:50] Your positive attitude, I've found, or my positive attitu- attitude helps other people, and then sometimes they'll come for a walk and talk with me and they'll, you know, it's just we have a, a networking group here and, um, it was just basically women and their dogs. I don't have a dog, but I used to borrow one from my lovely friend, and she used to bring her mother-in-law's dog, and you didn't-- it wasn't mandatory, but we'd just go for a walk for about 45 minutes outside, and we're all businesswomen, but then we'd talk about usually anything but business.

[00:33:19] You know, we'd just be talking, "Oh my gosh, the trees are late coming out," and what's happening, and, "There's a swan over there," and that was great. And then we'd have a coffee at the end of it and then realise that we'd really bonded- Yes ... and then you hadn't always talk about, you know, what, um, what's your latest offer in business or anything like that.

[00:33:36] We're just really supportive feeling, and then we would do that just once a month, that just walking with like-minded women and people would say, "Oh, you know, we could just go for a coffee," but no, we need the walk to get out there.

[00:33:48] That just releases- Yes ... part of your brain, and then you look at the dogs just getting in the mud, and you have a giggle, and you're trying to get them out the water, and it's just really, if you're having a busy or intense things to do, it really just clicks you out of that mindset there's other things happening in the world, and then you can feel, I've always felt refreshed to sort of tackle other things after that, 

[00:34:08] Sarah: yeah. Fantastic. 

[00:34:09] Annie: Borrow a dog and get out.

[00:34:12] There is positivity in the world.

[00:34:13] There are people that realise that, you know, this is just not a commodity. You, we need to look after the planet and look after ourselves. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it hopefully it'll keep growing, that attitude. 

[00:34:25] Sarah: I believe there's also, like, a, a chemical benefit to forest bathing.

[00:34:30] Phytoncides 

[00:34:31] Annie: oh, wow. 

[00:34:31] Sarah: Apparently in amongst the trees they give- Yeah ... off these chemicals. It can actually boost your immune system. Yeah. 

[00:34:39] Annie: It's a protective space.

[00:34:40] I think it's goes back to being primeval. If you know, you were more protected. You weren't, if you're a, a sole traveler and you're out in the wilds and the open fields, you're very vulnerable. But if you're in the woodland, 

[00:34:50] Sarah: Mm. 

[00:34:50] Annie: If in the woods you are, you've got cover, you've got places to hide, you feel more protected in a, uh, in a forest situation as a person, as an animal as well.

[00:35:00] Um, but, and then also I love it, um, trees talk to each other. They look after each other through all the fungus through the soil. That works in the root systems. If one tree in their... And they even look after different species, but s- species stick together apparently.

[00:35:13] If there's one tree that's ailing, the trees, some trees do, can send nutrients through the roots to, uh, dump and be, help feed a tree that's ailing. That is, and that is a fact. I know it sounds a bit cuckoo and everything, but I love it. 

[00:35:26] Sarah: That's amazing. 

[00:35:27] Annie: So they've got their own structure, and they're looking after each other.

[00:35:29] So obviously if we're going through that situation and it's a protective situation, and you feel as though what's around you is protecting each other, you're gonna get a boost. It's, you know- Yeah ... I think your, your perception, people's perception have shut down a lot. But if you give yourself time to feel what's around and be, you know, that's why they call it b- bathing, isn't it?

[00:35:47] You have to immerse yourself. You've gotta give yourself time. So, but- Yeah. 

[00:35:51] Sarah: Well, I think, as we've said, sort of it's sort of putting a name to things that people- used to do- Yeah ... a lot more. Yeah. Um, I think there are sort of certain principles that they've put in place as part of forest bathing- 

[00:36:05] Annie: Yeah

[00:36:05] Yeah. 

[00:36:05] Sarah: And it is things like, you know, taking those deep breaths, so you're taking in more of those chemicals, but you're also- 

[00:36:12] ... 

[00:36:12] Um, letting your nervous system relax. Yeah. Yeah. There is turn off your mobile phones.

[00:36:17] That's not, you know, not the time for multitasking. Yeah. I think they even say, you know, sort of avoid running after a dog or b- or- Yeah ... it's all about that slowing down. Indulge. Yeah. That mindfulness, that being- Yeah ... giving yourself that space to be fully aware of what's going on all around you, letting all your senses get involved in it.

[00:36:39] Annie: Yeah. It's to let things in, like I say, and then- Yeah ... let things out from yourself. That's why I feel, I find this very creative. I find ideas just come up, and that's why I carry a notebook around or whatever because, you know, it ... to be open. Like, you know, that's what part of it is, just be open to the world.

[00:36:53] And then- Yes ... you can't be open to the world if you're just, like, listening to something that's you listen to every day. You need to ex- you know, it's always different. You know, in the woodlands there's always different, uh- Mm ... smells and sounds, different times of the year. It's a different feel. The forest sounds different in the winter

[00:37:09] it's more echoey and colder, obviously, 'cause the trees are bare. Where it's all muffled and softer and more, um, cover in the summer. So you just feel- 

[00:37:19] Sarah: Right. Yes, of course. 

[00:37:21] Yeah. 

[00:37:21] Annie: Yeah. It's all different, so that's why it's lovely to, you know, you do the same walk, but it's always changing, and it's always wonderful.

[00:37:29] Mm. I think that's why people love to do the sea. You know, if you go for a sea walk, obviously the oxygen's amazing, but then it's always different. Yes. Yeah, so I- 

[00:37:37] Sarah: You get the same in the forest 

[00:37:38] Annie: ... that's a stimulus. Yeah. But ... and then you notice things changing. You know, when leaves are coming through and when they're not, and the colours, the white- 

[00:37:45] Sarah: The bluebells 

[00:37:46] and- Yeah

[00:37:47] Annie: yeah. Yeah. Th- the first buds on a tree, the flush is, like, a acid green, and then it- 

[00:37:53] Sarah: Yeah 

[00:37:53] Annie: ... calms itself down. And I love autumn, just absolutely love all the colours. You know, a little bit of red happening there. But, um- ... really appreciate all the autumn colours and everything. But that sort of seasonal rhythm, and that's, like, in tune with your body as well, 'cause you have a

[00:38:10] You know, that's where people get is that SAD syndrome, where you don't get the lights. 

[00:38:14] Sarah: Yes. Yeah, 

[00:38:14] seasonal- 

[00:38:15] Annie: Depressed 

[00:38:15] Sarah: ... affective disorder. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:38:17] Annie: Um, you don't get the lights, like, every time you get to January, you're just desperate to get out. But, you know, if you're in a city situation, it's just literally because you've got dark buildings around you.

[00:38:28] But sometimes- You're gonna need to, in January, just go out where it's a very open event and you'll get more daylight. It's really- Yeah ... basic. Really basic. Yeah. 

[00:38:36] Sarah: And there you go. You just need the right clothing on, and actually- Yeah ... there's no season- Oh, I'm a wuss sometimes. I'm really- ... completely stop you, is there?

[00:38:43] Annie: I grew up in Cumbria, so honestly it's tropical down here really. 

[00:38:49] Sarah: So we'll see you wandering through a, a park in London in your bare feet and - Well, 

[00:38:53] Annie: yeah. I, I used to do lots ... And I ... But, you know, with my photo shoots I work outside a lot on locations, and there's Highgate Woods we used to use a lot, and I've got some great shots- 

[00:39:02] Sarah: Mm

[00:39:02] Annie: of, uh, you know, when the trees are turning, and did some lovely imagery there and everything. So I'm quite aware of the seasons and the light and how that works and how to use it. Um, and I love, like, golden hour, you know, that last ... when the sun's setting and it's coming through. And that's a lovely time to go for a walk because you feel, like, energised.

[00:39:21] You're getting the last rays of the sunshine, and it's ... really does give you ... Like, you feel as though it's gonna g- be dark soon, so you sort of, I don't know, I get a real buzz off that, the, the golden hour, when you're getting the last rays and you're enjoying the last few scraps of lovely light. So just, yeah.

[00:39:36] But do you- Everyday's different. 

[00:39:38] Sarah: Yeah. So do you think maybe that appreciation of nature and of light and capturing that in a way may have- Yeah ... been where or possibly the start of where your- 

[00:39:50] Annie: Yeah. 

[00:39:50] Sarah: Yeah ... photography interest came from? Yeah. 

[00:39:52] Annie: Oh, yes, definitely.

[00:39:53] Sarah: Well, I'm, I'm thrilled to say I have Annie doing a, a shoot with me in a few weeks time- Oh ... for my business. And so, would you like to tell us a little bit more about the photography offers that you've got on at the moment?

[00:40:04] Annie: I'm a lifestyle branding, uh, beauty and portrait photographer.

[00:40:09] I think the best thing is to have a look at, uh, connect with me on LinkedIn. 

[00:40:13] Sarah: LinkedIn, okay, fantastic.

[00:40:14] Annie: And then also have a look at my website, 

[00:40:15] Sarah: so I'll make sure that those links are in the show notes.

[00:40:18] Yeah. So if people want to have a little look at- Yeah ... what else Annie does. 

[00:40:22] Annie: I'm always up for a little chat. Some people want to do a photo shoot, but they're not sure what they want to do, so I, like, have a little half-hour consultation, no obligation.

[00:40:30] See what you want, see what we can do together.

[00:40:32] Sarah: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Annie. I mean, literally, I think the two of us could carry on chatting about- Yeah, it's been jolly

[00:40:39] anything related to forest bathing for quite a while, and I'm sure I'll be lending you the book and, uh, hopefully popping down to the Chelsea Flower Show at some point. Thank you so much for today. But thank you for today, and I'll see you again soon.

[00:40:50] Annie: Yeah. Thank you. It's been brilliant. Thanks so much. Bye for now.

[00:40:53] 

[00:40:58] Sarah: Well, I don't know about you, but I feel like I need to go and put my shoes on, or rather take them off, and get outside right now. What I love about this conversation is that Annie captures something really important. Forest bathing isn't a technique to perfect or practice, to add to an already packed schedule.

[00:41:19] It's something we already know how to do. We just got busy and stopped. Whether it's a walk in the woods, bare feet on wet grass, hands in the soil, or even just 10 minutes on a bench outside with a sandwich, it all counts. It's all bringing you back to something. The bit that stayed with me was Annie's point about change of state.

[00:41:43] We might reach for a drink at the end of the day to signal to our brains that we've finished. But going outside, even briefly, even in the rain, does the same thing and then some. And the fact that the trees are quietly doing something similar, sending nutrients to each other through their roots, looking after ones that are struggling, there's something in that that feels like a very good reminder.

[00:42:10] Annie is actually a lifestyle branding and portrait photographer based in Warwickshire, and if you'd like to see her beautiful work or find out about her no-obligation consultation, there's links to her website and LinkedIn in the show notes.

[00:42:24] And details of the book I mentioned by the Forest Bathing Institute is also in the show notes if you want to explore further. Until next time, take care of yourselves, and remember, you might not need a forest, you just need to go outside.

[00:42:42] ​