Exploring Family Constellations with Kaz

What if the thing holding you back has nothing to do with your own life at all -but with a story that belongs to someone in your family tree, generations before you were even born?

Host Sarah Gorev welcomes back Kaz (Karen Conville), who joined her previously to talk about Ayurveda, for a fascinating conversation about family constellations -the practice of looking at the patterns, beliefs and burdens we can unconsciously inherit from our wider family system.

Please be aware: to explain the concept, Kaz uses a hypothetical example involving the accidental death of a child, and later touches on miscarriage and stillbirth. Both are handled with care, but worth knowing before you press play.

In this episode you'll hear about:

• What actually counts as "family" in this work -and why people entirely outside your bloodline can still be part of your system

• How unresolved grief, guilt or exclusion can filter down through generations without anyone consciously knowing why

• The victim/perpetrator dynamic, and how healing comes from acknowledging both sides of suffering, not choosing one

• What actually happens in a session 

• Kaz's own first experience witnessing a session

• Why you don't need to bring an issue of your own to benefit -simply witnessing can be part of the healing

• What it really means to "gracefully hand back" a story that was never yours to carry

Whether you're already drawn to this work or hearing about family constellations for the first time, this is a thoughtful, open-hearted conversation about the stories we carry -and the ones we can choose to put down.

🔗 Kaz / Karen Conville - https://karenconville.com/ 

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/karenconville/

Exploring Ways to Wellness is hosted by Sarah Gorev -honest, down-to-earth conversations about holistic wellness approaches that actually work.

Transcript

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Exploring family constellations with Kaz

​[00:00:00] 

[00:00:05] Sarah: Welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I'm Sarah Gorev, and today I'm delighted to welcome back Kaz, who you might remember from a previous episode. Today, she's going to be talking to us about family constellations, a practice that looks at the patterns and the burdens we can unconsciously carry from our wider family system, not just in our own lifetime.

A quick note before we start. To explain the concept, Kaz will be using a hypothetical example that involves the accidental death of a child, and later she does touch on miscarriage and stillbirth. Both are handled with real care, but if it's not for you today, no worries at all. We'll see you in the next episode or when you're ready.

You'll also hear a couple of brief dips in audio quality. A few gremlins on the call, I'm afraid, but the conversation [00:01:00] itself was so rich I really didn't want to lose any of it. So with that, let's dive in 

[00:01:11] Sarah: welcome back to Exploring Ways to Wellness. I'm thrilled to have a returning guest with me today. So Karen Conville you may remember from an episode we did on Ayurveda back, uh, last summer, I think it was. And, um, I've invited her back because she also uses another practice that I'm really fascinated by, which is family constellations.

Thank you for joining us, Kaz, to talk about that, and welcome today. 

[00:01:42] Kaz: Thank you for having me 

[00:01:42] Sarah: I have been really looking forward to this conversation because following meeting Kaz for the last, uh, podcast that we did together, I have been on one of her retreats, and family constellations were part of that.

I sort of got an inkling for what they're [00:02:00] all about,

but I guess the first thing it would be good to sort of delve into is we're talking family constellations. W- who is considered family for this? So obviously we have these sort of blended versions of families these days, and then you've got your sort of chosen family with friends as well. So w- what would be included?

[00:02:21] Kaz: Yeah. So it's family constellations, but there's also kind of like systemic constellations. So it's based on your family being a system, but you can also use this kind of work with any kind of system. Okay. So if we're talking about your traditional family and the whole beauty of working with the energy of a system or the dynamics within a system, and we think about the things that we are maybe acting out unconsciously that a- have been inherited through our familial line, [00:03:00] then it would be kind of like our parents, grandparents, all of the ancestors going back.

[00:03:06] Sarah: Right. 

[00:03:06] Kaz: But because families are, um, n- not very straightforward usually, there's usually a lot of stuff and stories going on. There are, in terms of this work, Other people from outside of the traditional bloodline, I would say, that come into the system. So for example, say somebody way past had come out one day on his way to work and accidentally hit neighbour's child and killed them in his car.

[00:03:41] Sarah: Right. 

[00:03:41] Kaz: Then you've taken a life not on purpose, not consciously, but you've taken a life and that guy becomes part of their system, and that child becomes part of this system 'cause there's some sort of en- entanglement there. There's something that's happened with a life. 

[00:03:59] Sarah: Okay.[00:04:00] 

Yeah, so there's some sort of incident that has meant that almost their stories are crossed in a way. 

[00:04:08] Kaz: Yeah. So I think that traditional family members and the stories connected to them, but what actually matters in the system is all of the events and the, and the people that are brought in, which is why we're all interconnected,

[00:04:23] Sarah: You don't necessarily have to be related to the person in order for them to be part of a past story within your family. 

[00:04:33] Kaz: That's it. so there's, there's something happening in my life, and I can't seem to get to the bottom of it. Maybe it didn't start with me. Maybe it's from way back. So all of the dynamics and the experiences that people in our family have had live on in the system. And if there's been any kind of distress without any resolution or resolve, [00:05:00] then

we can unconsciously take that on further down the line. So in the case of the example I've just given of this guy he, he, he's taken the life of a child, not consciously, not on purpose, but that's what's happened. Now, it may be that his family are really understanding of that. There's been no exclusion from the family, that he's absolutely filled with remorse, and he tries to carry on with his life regardless, but he lives his life feeling really conscious and guilty for taking that life.

Um, he, it might show up in that he believes that he, he isn't worthy of having any children 'cause he's taken the life of another, or whatever it is. But he might not actually speak these out, because maybe he's from a time when men don't talk about these kinds of things. 

[00:05:51] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:05:52] Kaz: But then, maybe he's already got a child, and then further down the line, two generations down, [00:06:00] you've got someone who could either not want to have children, but, it's, I mean, it's a personal choice anyway, but there might just be this thing of, like, "I just I can't," because the belief underneath it is, "I can't keep them safe.

I'll harm them in some way without meaning to." 

[00:06:18] Sarah: So various experiences happen to us, or various things impact our personalities, the way we feel about ourselves. And as you said, often these aren't talked about, but they could be things that unconsciously you pass down, whether it's through your actions or through the way that you react to other people and, and, you know, your, your relatives going forward.

I guess in your genetics maybe you can carry these sort of markers of things that have happened to you.

[00:06:50] Kaz: Yeah, so epigenetically it it can filter down. And obviously we're not born consciously choosing that we're gonna, we're gonna do this.

It's all happening at the, you know, at [00:07:00] the, at the very, very deepest level, in, in the blood, all of the messages and the information that's encoded in there. And there's some sort of... So it might be that that's the way that that situation manifests. Or it could be in a belief of actually in order to atone for taking the life of another, if you're unidentified or entangled with this family member you're going to spend your life really trying to save children , but you might not know why in this lifetime this particular thing really matters to you. 

[00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, 

[00:07:36] Kaz: that's really- But you're trying to atone for something that happened quite, generations ago, and sometimes we don't even know what these stories are.

[00:07:44] Sarah: Yeah. So that's really fascinating, that actually it could come out in something that is of benefit to society or your own feeling of self-worth. You know, you're attracted to certain things as opposed to it [00:08:00] being, "I know I've got a problem. I can't work out what it is

let's have a look at what possibly happened in previous generations." 

[00:08:10] Kaz: Yeah. And let's say it might be that this guy never talked about it, so it, that kind of stayed with- within that family or whatever happened. Maybe he moved away. We don't know. I don't know where this hypothetical story's come from, to be honest.

[00:08:23] Sarah: It's working for- for the purpose of example, so, uh, yeah, thank you. Yeah, 

[00:08:28] Kaz: definitely. Don't know where it came from. It's clearly somewhere in this collective system. So yeah, so it, imagine they've moved away. Nobody really talked about this. It wasn't really known, so therefore, the people who are experiencing these kinds of things might not know about it.

Mm-hmm. But where it might become a problem is if someone then became so, entrenched in this thing of trying to atone for something, always feeling like they've done something wrong, because that would filter into other aspects of your [00:09:00] life, wouldn't it?

[00:09:01] Sarah: Right. 

[00:09:01] Kaz: You know, if you always have this underlying core belief that you've done something wrong or you're going to harm somebody without intending to, that might be showing up in your life in more ways than you doing that work of trying to atone for someone else. Or it can be that it- it's so deep that it stops you from enjoying and living your life.

[00:09:29] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:09:30] Kaz: Because you don't wanna get close to someone in case you hurt them. 

[00:09:33] Sarah: So is that what tends to happen? People come to you after they've tried other things and they want to see if there's something in past generations that- that's- that's now impacting them? Or are they very aware something's happened in previous generations and they're concerned it's impacting them now?

[00:09:53] Kaz: The people that I work with tend to be people who are very aware. They take responsibility for their own lives and- and they've [00:10:00] maybe they have noticed a pattern that's repeating going down the, down the line and they're like, "Actually, this has to stop with me."

Maybe they know about, intergenerational trauma and- and all of that stuff, and they, and they want to explore it further. And sometimes, I mean, how I came across it was, so for a long time I was working with- subconscious programming and the s- and the patterns and the beliefs that we have. But it was very much trying to link everything to what was happening in this lifetime.

[00:10:32] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:10:33] Kaz: And so for a lot of it, it's like I, I can't possibly know what's happened before then. If you think of as a collective all of the things that will be shaping and informing how as a collective we're experiencing the day. So thinking about Holocaust or famines or anything like that, how that lives on in the body epigenetically getting to where we are now.

So I [00:11:00] knew that, and I was just working at this level of, but this is all I can work with because this is what I know. 

[00:11:07] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:11:08] Kaz: So when I personally found family constellations, to me it was that missing piece of this is something that's happening in the system, and whatever the story is, I might never have known, let's say, that was the story.

But actually what's happening in my life is I'm not getting close to people because on some level I feel like I'm doing something wrong or I'm gonna harm them, and I won't know why. 

[00:11:31] Sarah: Yeah. 

Interesting. 

[00:11:33] Kaz: I won't know what that is. 

[00:11:35] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:11:35] Kaz: So when you expand on this issue, so it's not that someone comes...

Well, sometimes people do come and they say, "I've noticed we've got this ancestral pattern. I'd like to work with that." More often than not, though, people come and they're just like, "This is the issue I'm experiencing in my life." 

[00:11:51] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:11:51] Kaz: Whether it's to do around, um, food or relationships or the career or [00:12:00] finances.

Whatever it is, any issue, they'll come and they're like there's clearly something happened because I'm doing the work, but there's something deeper here which has stopped me making any progress." 

"

[00:12:10] Kaz: It's stopped me moving forward." So a lot of the times it's expanding the issue- Yeah ... and the relationship between the person who's coming and that issue.

[00:12:21] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:12:22] Kaz: So you can 

[00:12:23] Sarah: do it- So you don't even need to know that there was an issue in the family before, and it doesn't- No ... need to be something necessarily that you recognise, I guess, in the sort of first generation back. Because that's- Yeah ... something I noticed sort of observing a, a family constellation, is it can be, it can bring in members that you didn't even, you know, consciously know were even in your family.

[00:12:49] Kaz: Yeah, absolutely. So we have this, the idea is you've, you've got this personal conscience. We know right from wrong usually, and we can just if you [00:13:00] think about on an immediate family level, so just like you, your parents, and their parents up to like grandparents' level.

If you think back, when you were a child and your mother would say "Shh, don't do that, the neighbours will hear," or whatever it is. It all stems from that need of belonging, and safety, and survival. So we have this kind of known sense, which is what I was saying before. I'm doing the work where it's kind of like, well, maybe you can't remember things from your own childhood.

Mm-hmm. So how are we supposed to remember things going all the way back? Of course, 

[00:13:34] Sarah: yeah. 

[00:13:36] Kaz: So then we have the collective conscience, and that is basically all of the things that we might never know about, but they're still affecting us somehow. Yeah. It's the same thing underneath it. It all comes ... Like, love is underneath it all.

The need for love, and belonging, and acceptance, and acknowledgement is underneath all of it. 

[00:13:57] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:13:57] Kaz: But sometimes we know what the issue is. [00:14:00] More often than not, we don't know where the issue is. 

[00:14:04] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:14:04] Kaz: And those kinds of things, because we're all interconnected can be felt throughout all of our systems.

So we all tend to know what it feels like to have been betrayed or to be excluded from something or we also know the opposite of that. We know when, what belonging feels like. Typically, we feel like maybe not belonging, but connection. Mm-hmm. You know, when you feel like connected to something, or you feel drawn without any reason why to certain countries or certain types of people.

We, we naturally have this gravitation to, to what feels like it's more in balance. We're all part of nature, and it's always looking for balance.

[00:14:50] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Which I guess links back again to the episode that we did on Ayurveda and- 

[00:14:55] Kaz: Yeah, absolutely 

[00:14:56] Sarah: ... I can see how the, how you would be drawn between one [00:15:00] and another, definitely. 

[00:15:02] Kaz: That's it, so if we, if we do link this to Ayurveda and we think about all of the elements and how they all have a place and they all have a purpose.

So that ecosystem everything i- has equal value. Mm-hmm. It has a place. And that is the essence of the constellation system as well. So when we talk about constellations, we talk, people think it's to do with astrology and stuff like that. It's basically to do with the dynamics of how energies are in relation to another.

So probably like astrology, when the planets are in certain areas the energy changes. There's different archetypes are lived through, different stories are, are lived, lived out. We experience collectively sort these types of things. So when you have all of these different things in relation to each other, but they all have a place, and they all have a purpose, and they all belong, and there's no judgment on that.

It just, it [00:16:00] is, there's the give and the take. There's the- Yeah ... there's, there's the cycles, the seasons the balance that's naturally being sought. 

[00:16:11] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:16:11] Kaz: Um- 

[00:16:12] Sarah: But I guess that's- And- ... a view you can sort of see from above. Once you, when you're in a family, it can feel... I mean, judgment, for example, is one word you just said that I think, well, there is a lot of judgment in families, and there's a lot of energies that can feel like they butt up against each other as well as...

But I guess within the grand scheme of things, you can see this sort of ebb and flow. That's 

[00:16:38] Kaz: it. Mm-hmm. And whichever way you choose to think of it, whether you're stepping out or you're stepping up, it, this is the beauty of the constellation work, is that very often the person who is having an issue looked at is expanding something out.

So whether you look at it as you're kind of like it's all down and you're mapping it all out, and you're above it, and you're looking down from a different [00:17:00] perspective, like you've just said the person kind of comes with an issue and will say, "Um, this is what I'm experiencing." The facilitator will have kind of, we don't need to know absolutely everything.

It's just what you feel might be important to, to know. Um, because what we're looking for is, like, where there might be a pattern where you're repeating from somewhere else or where there might be somebody that or something that's been excluded. 

[00:17:30] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:17:31] Kaz: So all of these things, all of these judgments, all of this victim-perpetrator dynamic are useful to know.

But actually, when you expand and you open out a constellation, what you're doing is, um, you're just looking at it from a different perspective. Mm. And you're trusting whatever comes at that point is what wants to be looked at, what wants to be acknowledged, what needs to be witnessed 

[00:17:57] Sarah: Yeah. And it might not be what the person is [00:18:00] expecting, I guess.

[00:18:00] Kaz: Exactly. 

[00:18:01] Sarah: Because I guess we- y- you mentioned there about victim perpetrator and it, and it just made me think that actually do you find sometimes people are coming looking for someone to blame or shame or absolve themselves of responsibility of something? 

[00:18:16] Kaz: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that we all are victims and we all are perpetrators on some level.

[00:18:25] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:18:25] Kaz: And when people come quite often they can be, "Well, there's something that's happened," I, I mean, I've had people come in family constellations just with a, with a curiosity and an open heart of kind 

[00:18:36] Sarah: of like- Yeah, I guess that's the, the key, isn't it? Be curious about what's happened and how that may be manifesting itself. 

[00:18:43] Kaz: Yeah. And the interesting thing, and I'm sure you'll be able to attest to this, is that we can talk, we could sit on here and talk all day about family constellations, but until you actually witness or take part in one, it's very difficult to get [00:19:00] across what, what you actually mean by a lot of this.

Yes. Because I can talk about there being a system. A system, and if we think of that as a family system, and going all the way back in the ancestors, ideally there'd be mother and father and the love would flow to a child. That child would get married to somebody else or they'd, they'd carry on. The next generation would come and the love would flow one way- Yeah

in that direction. And everyone would, uh, just be like, this is where all of my attention and my love is going," and the flow of life would filter down. But 

[00:19:31] Sarah: what hap- So, like those beautiful family trees you see drawn out and sort of all, all ornate- Yes ... and yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:19:39] Kaz: Yeah. So. Yeah. But again, the reality of it, it doesn't look like that perfect tree.

You know, if you were to look at it, there's branches that have snapped off, there's things that are looking a different way. There's, there's a lot of chaos within that, and everybody, every, each energy is basically just trying to do the best they can in managing with that. Mm. When we think of the [00:20:00] victim perpetrator dynamic,

there might be some people if we, if we're going into judgment, so the example of the, the guy who accidentally knocked over his neighbour's child, could be called murderer. 

You know? There could be a lot of blame put upon that.

And of course, there's, um, consequences and responsibilities that come with that. But if you think of, um, implications on two family systems then,

So obviously there's a, there's a trauma on this system, which has got the child, which is the devastation of losing a child, of l- losing a, a someone so young and, and everything that comes with that. This system as well have also got a, a devastation and, um, and a guilt that they might feel for that and everything that, that comes with that.

Both are suffering. 

[00:20:54] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:20:56] Kaz: The- there's different aspects and perspectives, but [00:21:00] both are suffering. So where the healing comes is where we acknowledge and witness that suffering, and we bring them into union. You know, the, it's, it's not, ... When people come into this work, there's, there's something around kind of like they're a perpetrator and they, they deserve to be excluded or punished or whatever for what it is that they've done.

But actually it happened and it has a place. 

[00:21:24] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:21:24] Kaz: Where the healing comes within that is I see that you're in pain. I can see it and I can acknowledge that this is ... I'm in pain too. And there's some sort of movement where if you think of a victim and a perpetrator, one feels small and one feels big.

Actually everybody equally has a place and equally has their the sense of belonging in this system. Yeah. And whatever happened, happened. And, and it's, it's brought us to where we are at this point in time whenever we're looking at it. 

[00:21:53] Sarah: Yeah. And I guess all, all emotions are relevant and all can be acknowledged.

[00:21:59] Kaz: Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah. So when we do this work, um, if this conversation happens and one feels really small and one feels really big in terms of victim or perpetrator then what you have is the sense of power, being taken from someone else. Right. And, you, you're not fully living your life in the way that you would, ideally be able to and live in your own destiny because- There's this perpetrator that has done something to you.

[00:22:35] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:22:36] Kaz: So if we give everyone a place and we acknowledge what is and acknowledge what happened, sometimes there's just, that is enough for a shift to take place. 

[00:22:48] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:22:48] Kaz: Sometimes it hasn't even been looked at or there's been so much energy and anger towards something or this side's been looking for atonement and wanting to put [00:23:00] something right.

You know, there's, there's a lot- Yeah ... of energy goes to what's unseen- 

[00:23:05] Sarah: Yeah ... 

[00:23:05] Kaz: and what's unacknowledged, and the acknowledgement is absolutely the key. In uniting people in the suffering so that you can unite them in the, in the freedom. Yes.

[00:23:15] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:23:16] Kaz: When we do this work, we're healing the energy of what happened. We're acknowledging what is. It belongs, it has a place, but we give it its order as well. So that happened before. It came before us, and w- with honour and dignity and grace we kind of acknowledge this, this was your story.

But actually can I take the wisdom and the gifts from that and live my life in my way- Yeah ... without constantly trying to atone for something maybe that happened 100 years ago? 

[00:23:50] Sarah: Yes. Yeah, so it's, it's almost not really your wound to carry. Yeah. You can leave it with that person in the past. So on a intellectual [00:24:00] level, that all makes sense, but if we then come onto what a session looks like, I found- Mm

absolutely fascinating. What, what did you feel when you first saw a family constellation session? 

[00:24:14] Kaz: So, um, I trained with, um, Veda, and, um, she's, she's amazing. And I saw her at a festival.

Uh, no, it was some sort of gathering, and I went with, um, with one of my friends who is actually quite shy and would, wouldn't really be the one to put a hand up or to step into a group or do anything like that. I- if anything would be flipped, I would be the one that'd be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna have a go at this.

I'm gonna get in a, in a ‑" Yeah, I can imagine that. "‑" but actually- ... I love all of this stuff. I really like, I love the quantum side of it. I love I've just got a really, like, curious mind. 

[00:24:52] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:24:52] Kaz: But I'm also quite skeptical Stuff Yeah ... so I go in and sit and I was like hang on, but she seems to know a [00:25:00] few people here so maybe these all, everybody that's in this, all the c- people in this circle know this story.

So basically Vida chooses someone to have an issue expanded and to explore and, uh, to have their constellation, and she puts some fabrics on the floor. So they're basically just little bits of fabric with a V cut out, and the, the V if you imagine a pair of feet on a square with a V in the middle, it denotes the direction that they're facing.

Right. And she puts... someone chooses a fabric foot to represent her and a fabric to represent her issue or the family member or the person that she's you know, a partner or whatever it was. And, um, and where they are in relation to each other is gonna affect how they feel, how they express themselves.

So they could be facing, they could have backs to each other, they could be closer, they could be further apart, all of this. So I'm thinking, "Yeah, that makes sense." But still in the back of my mind, [00:26:00] there's gonna be people in this room that actually know her or know this situation of this person that has brought this issue.

I'm tuned into the energy of the people who are just in the group, not specifically but you kind of know. And then they stand up and they go to stand on these fabrics, and they shift. They hold themselves different, whereas the face might have been quite relaxed before, they'd be quite, um, stern looking.

It was just some sort of shift. And so as the session progresses, I'm kind of looking like, "This is quite good." But also be like, "Is this role play? Is this people kind of stepping into a different thing?" And it doesn't feel like that. 

[00:26:48] Sarah: And that's 

[00:26:48] Kaz: when it clicked. I was kind of watching what's going on in with some people, and then before I knew it, the girl I was with was up and standing on a fabric.[00:27:00] 

And I was just, "What on Earth is happening here?" Because this friend is, She's wonder- wonderful, but she, it, there, there was a lot of times I would have to say, "Can you speak up? Because I can't quite hear what you're saying." 

[00:27:16] Sarah: Right. 

[00:27:16] Kaz: You know? 

[00:27:17] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:27:17] Kaz: Very softly spoken, very gentle. And she stood up, and she was upright.

Her shoulders were back, and she was projecting her voice like this fierce grandmother who had kept stepped into this constellation. Wow. I was like, "Whoa." I know there's something happening here because she wouldn't do, she wouldn't do that. Because 

[00:27:38] Sarah: that's not natural for her. Yeah. No. She- And so what had happened here is that, that more pieces of fabric are put out as the investigation- Yeah

goes on into more elements of the family constellation- 

[00:27:51] Kaz: Exactly 

[00:27:51] Sarah: ... as I understand it. It, it's, right. And you don't necessarily know who that person is going to be as part of that constellation. It's [00:28:00] not that someone has, like, a list of right now we're gonna look at the grandfather, now we're gonna look at the grandmother.

It sort of- Yeah ... naturally develops, and then the people who are in the audience in, in the environment, are asked if they're drawn to that piece of fabric to become part of that constellation. 

[00:28:21] Kaz: Yeah. 

[00:28:21] Sarah: And then- 

[00:28:22] Kaz: That's exactly it 

[00:28:22] Sarah: how would you describe that, that what happens- Yeah

when they stand on the, on the fabric? 

[00:28:28] Kaz: Yeah, so in a sense what's happening is exactly as you've said there. You don't you don't have to go into this knowing what everything is. So that takes away the thing of it being role play- 

[00:28:39] Sarah: Yeah ... 

[00:28:39] Kaz: because the person who's issuing this can choose and, say to the facilitator, "This represents me.

This represents me issue," or, "This represents me, and this re- represents me mother and me father." So you can start with two or three fabrics on the floor. Nobody else knows what they are. It's just a coloured fabric. 

[00:28:57] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:28:57] Kaz: So the person places [00:29:00] them where they b- where they believe it is as a starting point, and then they sit back, and they're out of it by then.

They... It's like they're observing. They're witnessing- Mm-hmm ... whatever will unfold with the energies within the dynamics of this constellation. So some of you has come to the circle to witness or to participate as a representative for one of these fabrics, and a fabric can be an energy, an event- Yeah ... a situation, a person, a quality.

It's just some sort of frequency that is connected to something in the story. So it could be a family member, it could be infertility, it could be money, whatever. So you have these different fabrics representing something. 

[00:29:57] Sarah: The facilitator won't necessarily [00:30:00] say, "Who wants to come and represent money?"

Exactly. Or, "Who wants to come and represent- Yeah ... this person?" 

[00:30:06] Kaz: Yeah. Well, it's the strangest thing because sometimes you just, you don't know why, and it's crazy because you're looking and going, "Is this... That's just a blue bit of fabric on the floor, and I don't know why but I can't take my eyes off it." And you're really drawn to it.

[00:30:23] Sarah: So that's what happened to your friend, that she was drawn to a certain fabric, went and stood on it and then, um- 

[00:30:31] Kaz: Yeah.

So she was sitting next to me as her, and for whatever reason this fabric's on the floor. She gets up and she's standing on it, and as soon as she connects with that energy it's, i- it's different for her. She's tapping into whatever is going on in the part. So if she's standing there and she's this fierce grandmother and she's really projecting her voice and she's [00:31:00] really standing and, and standing up for someone or being part of this, this dynamic, and I don't even think at the time she knew she was this part, she just stood up and she was like, "I'm really fierce and I feel like I need to be here, and something needs to be said about that." It's not like I knew at that time she was this fierce grandmother. I'm just at the time thinking, "What's happening?"

[00:31:21] Sarah: What's going on? Yeah. 

[00:31:24] Kaz: Yeah. Something really is happening here because I know she wouldn't have... So I then kind of relaxed and I was like, "Oh my God, this is blowing my mind," because all of the things that come from that, the healing sentences, the moving, and how is it feeling in relation to this one and how is it in relation to that one, and some sort of emotion or story or something that needs to come up and out is expressed.

And acknowledged and, and the witnessing in it is healing not just for the people, the person whose constellation it is, but typically the, the [00:32:00] people who get up and represent recognise something in that- 

[00:32:05] Sarah: And that may be- why they were drawn to that energy-

ah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And 

[00:32:08] Kaz: it's not always at the time. Sometimes it's afterwards and they're like, "I can't believe I never even connected this." But... And it doesn't have to be in terms of like, this is also my story. Mm-hmm. Sometimes you step into a role that allows you to be in the perspective of a perpetrator of somebody in your story.

[00:32:30] Sarah: So it g- it gives you the opportunity to understand that ha- something that happened in your story by stepping into the perspective of somebody else. 

[00:32:39] Kaz: Yeah. Interesting. And this is all just, like, positive side effects of doing this work, because it can be quite heavy work. 

[00:32:48] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:32:48] Kaz: You know, you can go into this, you've it's, it, we, we don't know what's going to come up but whatever is right and ready to come up and to be acknowledged is where the healing [00:33:00] is.

[00:33:01] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:33:01] Kaz: So it's basically this energy that has, has come from your lineage. We're carrying these burdens unconsciously, these stories, these patterns, and trying to get on with our own life and our destiny. And particularly, um, we will have all observed in the healing community, I think a lot of the stuff around healing can be kind of trying to transcend the humanness of it.

[00:33:30] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:33:31] Kaz: But what the constellation work is to do is to say we're all human. We, we have these experiences, and this story actually didn't start with us, but we can do this work if we are the ones that are courageous enough to look at this- 

... 

[00:33:46] Kaz: From this perspective of understanding that actually the witnessing, the acknowledgement of it, the giving everything a place.

We're saying this, this happened, and maybe it wasn't okay, but this thing [00:34:00] happened, and it has a place in this story, but actually it's time to close the chapter on that story because we're writing a new story now. 

[00:34:07] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. That's the real key, isn't it? We're now looking to the future or the present and the future taking our own responsibility for what's going forward- Yeah

by then saying, "Thank you, but that's, that's in the past." 

[00:34:24] Kaz: Yeah. And that's the thing is, I thank you. That's beautiful life because without all of this, I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be me, and I wouldn't be in this position right now where I'm doing this work, and I'm willing to go into this deeper layer because actually I don't want to carry this forward.

[00:34:41] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:34:42] Kaz: And what I'm really hoping, and I'm seeing happening a lot, which is really encouraging for me, is that people are now recognising that something has to change, and we have to be the ones to change it. 

[00:34:56] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:34:58] Kaz: So when we come together in [00:35:00] community, and it's a great community with the family constellations because people show up for this work as a representative or just a witness for no other reason than to bring healing to humanity.

[00:35:14] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:35:15] Kaz: You know? And that 

[00:35:15] Sarah: is beautiful. 

[00:35:15] Kaz: People in the constellation world can show up and, and be there just as a sense of trying to get some understanding. 

[00:35:24] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:35:24] Kaz: And reclaiming the humanness and the humanity of that. And what that does is it allows us to look at things with more compassion. 

[00:35:31] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:35:33] Kaz: And to think about where we might have given away our power, and how we can reclaim that, and how we can come together so we can do the individual work, but how can we come together and acknowledge what has been, and stop history from repeating itself- 

[00:35:51] Sarah: Mm-hmm

[00:35:52] Kaz: to try and collectively unconsciously resolve something that we never chose in the [00:36:00] first place. Yeah. A story that didn't start with us. 

[00:36:03] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:36:03] Kaz: How do we reclaim that p- power and then take a new path forward? How do we start something new? Release those burdens of the past and, and kind of with the dignity hand them back and say, "Right, thank you very much for this, but actually that story belongs with you."

[00:36:23] Sarah: Yeah. And then- It's served its purpose. I'm gonna write the next chapter. Thank you. 

[00:36:28] Kaz: Yeah. And that's the whole thing is, like, you can't receive the gift when your hands are full of all of the, you know, the stuff you've been carrying. Yeah. So when you give that back, you, you're then opening space up energetically for those gifts and the wisdom to flow through, and for the, the flow of life to become much easier, for your life force to be directed in this present moment, but what am I creating going forward?

[00:36:55] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:36:55] Kaz: So it's really empowering- 

[00:36:58] Sarah: Yeah ... 

[00:36:58] Kaz: work. [00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Sarah: And I think that's where I find it really interesting that it's quite different to a lot of work that's done in this space, about understanding yourself. But as this object on its own- without acknowledging that some of this baggage or some of these elements

This seems to beautifully acknowledge those things, but say yes, we're experiencing the world through that lens, but some of them aren't relevant to us today to then take forward. We can leave- Absolutely ... those in the past. Yes they're part of our story, but it's a past story, and we get to choose how we go forward.

Yeah.

[00:37:40] Kaz: Absolutely. 

You're spot on with that. 

Where the healing is is in the community. So when this was first discovered, so Bert Hellinger is where the family constellations comes from, and he was working with some tribes in Africa,

so in these tribes, these people [00:38:00] had stories passed down from when they knew about their lineage. They knew I am the son of such and such, who is the son of such and such, and they could go all the way back and had all of these stories, and they'd gather, and they'd, and they'd talk about if something happened, everybody knew and everybody kind of learned and understood around it.

The world we're living in, It's,

based on separation on, uh, like some sort of hierarchy. Working i- in a place of kind of it, it's all about me. 

[00:38:35] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:38:36] Kaz: Added to the fact that a lot of times just going over the generations of at least you know, 100 years and way beyond, if you think of everything that's happened with wars and everything that will have come from everybody's stories coming down and, and through us it's all been about this isolation

but then what that's meant is that [00:39:00] anything that might have brought shame or guilt or blame or dishonour to a family has been excluded or not talked about. 

[00:39:11] Sarah: Mm. There's 

[00:39:11] Kaz: been some sort of it's not safe to, to talk about that. Say a grandmother, um, had... uh, was pregnant and miscarried or she had a stillborn baby, and it was just a case of we're just back from war.

We've got all these mouths to feed. People will go, "Oh, well, that's a blessing. It's another... It's not another... you haven't got another mouth to feed," or it, the, it just wasn't the right time, and you've got all of these other children to look after, so you've just gotta crack on with it, get on with it, and that's the way that it is.

So she learns to shut it down and not acknowledge what actually happened. Mm. That baby, that child, has gone into the system but is dead. It's not there, and it's not acknowledged within- Yeah ... the system. So it [00:40:00] might be that i- just the acknowledgement of that, like, I see your pain. I see what you... what you're carrying.

Like, you lost your child." This child actually belongs in the system, but because it was excluded and not talked about, it actually pulls the attention of the system. There's something wonky in the system- 

... 

[00:40:16] Kaz: Because it hasn't got its place. 

[00:40:19] Sarah: Yeah 

[00:40:19] Kaz: Hopefully going forward, we learn to do this in, in, say healing happens in community.

We are responsible for ourselves, but we amplify it when we're doing it in community with people, and we start to interact with each other again and reclaim our very humanness. 

[00:40:39] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:40:40] Kaz: The emotions, the understanding, the compassion, and we take all of the other stuff out of it, the religion and the dogma and the right and the wrong and the victim and the perpetrator and, and the separation out of it, and we start to unite from a place of love and open-heartedness and curiosity, and also that sense [00:41:00] of creation.

What are we gonna create moving forward? What's the new human story? 

[00:41:04] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. 

[00:41:05] Kaz: Because actually, we don't need to keep reliving those lessons of the past. We don't need to go to war. We don't need to do all of this. This is all down to communication and community and love underneath it all. 

[00:41:21] Sarah: Yeah. I love that.

I love the being able to acknowledge what's happened in the past and then being able to sort of move forward we're creating new constellations, aren't we, all the time? Yeah. Our interaction with other, with other humans

we've, we've learnt lessons.

Once we've acknowledged the past, we can choose how to go forward. 

[00:41:42] Kaz: Yeah. And once you're moving Yeah ... conscious, and then you become a conscious creator. You can honour what was, honour your lineage, honour the ancestry, but you can be more conscious and have that power with you. You can be more aware, 'cause you're not going to recognise [00:42:00] sometimes without doing work like this what all of those patterns are.

Mm-hmm. But once you're aware of them and that awareness is there, you can't unsee it, you can't un-know it. So then it becomes where we can- recognise more quickly where we're going into fear and not love. 

But if we stop and we go, "Actually, where have we seen things like this before in the past?" Is this actually mine? And is this coming from me? Because most of my day I can talk the talk and I can I can live this when it's just for me, but actually we're all a community.

Mm-hmm. And this has to be a bottom-up thing. So whether we do like we, like we do the work with EFT, it's very much around doing your stuff

[00:42:40] Sarah: yeah. 

[00:42:40] Kaz: But all of this, this bottom-up coming together and the people being the ones that make the change. Because actually, we are sovereign.

We are powerful. 

[00:42:51] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:42:51] Kaz: We have the capacity to be able to change all of this stuff when we recognise and we work with and we acknowledge [00:43:00] what was, let it move through us so that it creates space for all of the unknown magic that's waiting for us and the way that humanity can be moving forward. We kind of open up and we allow ourselves to not just dream, but, like, actually create, "This is what we know is possible for humanity," and it's evolved beyond going round that same loop and loop and loop- 

[00:43:27] Sarah: Yeah

[00:43:27] Kaz: again and again and again. 

[00:43:29] Sarah: And the beauty in doing that as part of, as you say, a collective as well is it's a group of people that are healing. It's not just the, the one person that's come with the issue. 

[00:43:39] Kaz: Yeah ... 

[00:43:39] Sarah: everybody. 'Cause I guess you can't really do a family constellation on your own, can you?

It needs to be facilitated as part of a group? 

[00:43:49] Kaz: No, you actually can. You can do it with just, like, you can just pick something. You can go, "This represents my mother and this represents my father," and you can step into that energy and actually do it- 

[00:43:59] Sarah: Ah, okay ... 

[00:43:59] Kaz: for [00:44:00] yourself. 

[00:44:00] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:44:01] Kaz: I think the beauty with, with the facilitator, as the same with ev- everything, is you haven't got that emotional inve- investment- Yeah

[00:44:08] Sarah: or the projection of you. 'Cause I guess you'd, you'd end up directing it, wouldn't you? Yeah. Rather than letting it just unfold, because you'd be- Yeah ... sort of unconsciously or consciously, I guess it comes back to the, what we were talking about at the start about y- you possibly looking for someone to blame or someone to shame- Yes

for something happening. 

[00:44:27] Kaz: Whereas, like, typically in a constellation, whether it's online, it's in person, it would just be a case of before you even step into that where you open up the space and open up the field to kind of ex- expand and, and constellate. We... You get into that part, into that centre, into the empty centre of you're not any roles, you're not any identities, you're not male or female, you are not judgment, you're not victim perpetrator, you're not more powerful anything else.

You are just, uh, y- [00:45:00] you're just empty. You're just void of all of that judgment. 

[00:45:04] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:45:05] Kaz: And you're just going in it with an open curiosity and trusting what comes through you. But what you typically find is that what is very common is that you realise once you've connected with something, oh, hang on, this is part of my story too.

But you didn't know that 'cause it was a blind constellation, you know. 

[00:45:24] Sarah: Yes. Yeah, fascinating. 

[00:45:26] Kaz: It's common. 

[00:45:27] Sarah: I know that you, you have had experiences yourself that have made a big difference personally- Yeah ... as well as being someone who facilitates for other people.

[00:45:38] Kaz: Yeah. It's, um, yeah, like so many stories if you have somebody else facilitating a session for you, and you're open to it, and it can go in a completely different direction. Yeah. And sometimes i- as the person whose constellation it is, it, it can be a bit frustrating 'cause you're like I wanted to really work with this," but [00:46:00] actually it's whatever's right and ready to be seen comes, and it somehow always links.

You know? Yeah. It goes off in a completely different tangent. And, you know, I've known 

[00:46:10] Sarah: one- I, I, that's one thing I absolutely loved watching it's that you can come with one thing and actually there will be a resolution, but it won't necessarily be the one that you were expecting. 

[00:46:23] Kaz: Yeah. 

[00:46:23] Sarah: And in, even in that, it can have a significant impact then on what happens afterwards.

Yeah. And relationships now, that you have now, can be impacted on, based on resolution of things that have happened in the past. 

[00:46:42] Kaz: Yeah. And I mean, it can even work with your system, right? So I've even had experiences where I've kind of, I've been really curious, like, what can I do about this? For me, in my system, this is me, this is the issue I've got.

And what comes out of that, it gets to a point where actually you've done as much as you can with [00:47:00] you. There's something going on for somebody who isn't actually in your family system, so you can't do anything with that. There's, you know, they- that's their- Their life. That's, you know, their stuff, their work to do.

[00:47:13] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:47:13] Kaz: So you kind of end that. But actually, what happens is when you've worked with your energy on something, that changes things for everybody and everything. Yeah. The energy's completely different, so if your energy's different, then the energy that's trying to relate to you by default- Mm ... changes somehow.

So it ripples out and brings about healing, sometimes even without anybody knowing what's been done. Just something changes. 

[00:47:46] Sarah: Yeah. I guess- Sometimes- ... especially where it's, like, repeating patterns and, and things, if you're stopping that, that doesn't need to repeat again. Well, that, of course, is going to then impact y- the relationship because again, as you were saying, we're [00:48:00] not individuals.

We- we're all part of interconnected systems, whether that's on an energetic level or not, so your relationships will naturally change, whether you notice it or they notice it,

[00:48:13] Kaz: It's like having a, a tapestry or, or something, some rug, whichever way you look at it, and there's some sort of knot that's there. Yeah. And if you loosen that knot and everything else kind of releases a bit it's got more energy.

It's got more flow to it. The tension isn't being pulled to this one thing. It's going where it's supposed to be going. 

[00:48:37] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:48:38] Kaz: So it's... it can have a huge impact. 

[00:48:41] Sarah: Yeah. I can imagine, like, not carrying all of that baggage of all of those people in your past can be, can really get you to a place of sort of more peace with yourself and more space, to feel what's yours instead.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:57] Kaz: So then the next time you notice that [00:49:00] in yourself or in somebody else- And you think, "Oh, that's, that reminds me of this story." You're looking at it through a different lens.

You're, you're looking at it from a different perspective with more compassion. You're more in the heart. You've got more empathy. 

[00:49:18] Sarah: Mm. 

[00:49:18] Kaz: And, you know, for the, the humanness and the way that we all are victims and perpetrators. We all mess up. It's part of being human. 

[00:49:29] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:49:30] Kaz: We all have love underneath it all and a sense of like wanting to belong, and we're all striving for balance.

So when you, you start to recognise the story afterwards or you are reminded of something, it's not from a place of being in it and properly feeling it, it's from a place of witnessing. 

That is what happened. I can feel that going on within me, and you've got that power because you're in the present moment.

You're not back there. 

[00:49:57] Sarah: Yes. 

[00:49:57] Kaz: You actually living it. You're [00:50:00] in the present and you're saying, this was the story. This is what was happening before. But actually, you can stay in this present moment and choose what I'm gonna do next." So it, it gets you in that position of reclaiming your power and your choice and how you can choose to show up and interact with other people.

[00:50:20] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Wow. Kaz, I could s- talk forever with you on this, and I really hope it's given people a good flavour of what family constellations are, what the possibilities are available, and why they're relevant to you now and changing your story and your feeling of wellbeing going forward.

So if people want to explore this more for themselves, Kaz, I know you hold some family constellation sessions yourself, don't you? What's the best way for people to find out more and explore it as they need? 

[00:50:56] Kaz: Yes. We've got something on social media. We can... Have a look at my [00:51:00] website, karenconville.com and just reach out and, and I'll have a chat and you can, typically you can book your own constellation.

So you'd pick a time and you could do that in person if you're near me or we do that online. And actually it works really well on online. It's, it's really good and it means that more people from around the world, the global community, can connect that way as well. 

[00:51:21] Sarah: Yeah, beautiful. And can you get involved as a witness as well as coming with the- 

[00:51:26] Kaz: Absolutely.

[00:51:26] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:51:27] Kaz: So what happens is the person whose constellation it is will obviously be the one that pays for that constellation, but then everybody that comes to witness or represent comes for free, and it's a great way. Anybody that shows up will no doubt find some gems in there for themselves, some little pearls of wisdom for their own journey and for their, their family system.

And just even if you just come and you don't participate in anything, you're always welcome to just come and witness and to see how it all unfolds. 

[00:51:57] Sarah: Yes, 'cause, as we said- before, you only, [00:52:00] you only get involved if you feel drawn to. So- Yeah ... so you wouldn't come along saying, "Oh, I'm always really good at being the grandmother," or something like that.

Yeah. It's not a role play. It's feeling into where you want to be involved. I haven't had a a family constellation done for myself yet, but, I have witnessed a few, and it is an absolutely fascinating process. So I would highly recommend people, witness a family constellation, in order to see whether, you connect with it seeing the impact afterwards as well is really incredible.

And it can seem very woo and it's hard possibly to, to get across certainly in a short podcast episode the, what it truly involves and the impact it can have. But I really appreciate it, Kaz, that you've come along and you've articulated it so well. So, um- Yeah ... I hope everybody's enjoyed it.

There's a 

[00:52:58] Kaz: series actually on [00:53:00] Netflix called Another Self. 

[00:53:02] Sarah: Another Self. 

[00:53:02] Kaz: If anybody... Another Self. At the end, um, it's a, it's a Turkish series, but it's dubbed quite well, so it's, um, but if anyone was just curious as to like, I don't know what she's talking about, what does she mean people stand and they represent, it gives you an idea.

Um, but obviously you can, you can find a lot out online as well. 

[00:53:20] Sarah: Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming along, Kaz. 

[00:53:25] Kaz: No, thank you. Thank you for having me. 

[00:53:33] Sarah: Family constellations is one of those practices that's hard to fully grasp until you witness one. But I hope Kaz has really given you a flavour of it today. What struck me most was how much lighter life can feel once you've stopped carrying stories that were never really yours to carry.

More space, more energy, and relationships that shift in ways that you might not even notice at first, [00:54:00] but over time. It's not always an easy process, but the sense of freedom on the other side sounds so worth it. Thank you so much, Kaz, for a generous and thoughtful conversation. Until next time, take care of yourselves, and remember, there are many paths to wellness, and sometimes they involve gracefully handing back a story that isn't yours so you're free to lead your own